Hablaste vs. Hablastes

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by Don Borinqueno, Jan 18, 2006.

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  1. Don Borinqueno Senior Member

    La Isla De Encanto
    Spanish, English
    I am not sure if this has already been asked but where i work there are a lot of Mexicans and i always here them adding on that weird type of ending. Usually with ar verbs. Can anyone explain this to me

    Por ejemplo:
    Hablaste=Hablastes
    Veniste=Venistes
    Corriste=Corristes

    I appreciate your help.
     
  2. alvarezp Senior Member

    Tijuana
    es_MX
    Hablastes is NOT correct.

    Lots of people have that problem.
     
  3. VenusEnvy

    VenusEnvy Senior Member

    Maryland, USA
    English, United States
    I agree with alva. I've heard Spanish speakers make that mistake, but it is just that: a mistake.


    Cheers! ;)
     
  4. diegodbs

    diegodbs Senior Member

    Madrid
    Spain-Spanish
    Lo correcto es:
    - Hablaste
    - Viniste
    - Corriste
     
  5. Calario Senior Member

    Madrid
    Spain Spanish
    Al final de los verbos puedes poner algunos pronombres como sufijos, y "tes" no es ningún pronombre.
    Puedes encontrar los sufijos:
    me, nos, te, se, le, lo, la, les, los, las
     
  6. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    From a gramatical standpoint, this form of speech is definitely incorrect. However, from a linguistic standpoint, it is not "wrong", it is just "different". As long as a form of speech is understood and practiced by a group of people as a form of communication, it isn't wrong. Language helps us communicate, so if we are communicating, it can't be wrong.

    So, in the same way that "ain't" and "walkin'" aren't wrong, "hablastes" and "andaste(s)" aren't wrong; in certain regions/countries, this speech pattern is often used in informal situations, especially among friends. I think they are more often said than written (in the same way that many people say "walkin'", but will write it as "walking", regardless of how they would pronounce it). However, I have many friends that use this form when writing me on messenger... it all depends.

    I think that the expression "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." ("Donde fueres, haz lo que vieres.") certainly applies in this situation. In informal speech, mimic those around you. Learn how natives speak. That's how you'll achieve true fluency. The ability to adjust to your surroundings and use colloquial speech is what sets apart a person who is learning a language and someone who knows a language. And yes, this sometimes means using incorrect grammar. I know that I don't speak with my friends in the "correct" way that I was taught in school. I split infinitives, use run-on sentences, employ double negatives, and so much more and thats okay. Likewise, it's okay to say "andaste(s)" or "hablastes" if that's how everyone is speaking around you. Just remember the correct grammar for when you're in a formal situation (such as with older adults, in written form, etc.). ;)
     
  7. ITA

    ITA Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    argentina español
    Hablaste,comiste,viste,visitaste,etc,etc
     
  8. Alunarada Senior Member

    Spain
    Spain-Spanish
    yo creo que el error viene porque se mezclan "fuiste" 2ª persona en singular con "fuisteis" 2ª en plural.
     
  9. FmhR Junior Member

    Germany
    Spanish - MEX
    @ Irisheyes:
    I DO NOT recommend anybody saying "hablastes,comistes, etc", even if the people around you are using this form. This one does not qualify as informal, it is just plain wrong and sounds horrible to the ears of native Spanish speakers.

    @mhp:
    Yes, this is one of those that make me cringe...
     
  10. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    También lo creo. "Hablastes" resulta de confundir "hablaste" con "hablasteis".
     
  11. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    I disagree. I think it depends on what you're used to. One of my friends from Nicaragua would give me a funny look if I spoke any other way in an informal setting... as if I were snobby or putting on airs (this is, of course, because he knows me and knows that I understand this form).

    To me, "ain't" and "fallin'" and many other forms of speech sound "horrible", and I would never use them, but that doesn't negate their position in the spoken English community. :) I really think that what sounds "horrible" and what sounds "acceptable" completely depends on where you're from & how you've been brought up.
     
  12. tigger_uhuhu

    tigger_uhuhu Senior Member

    mexico city
    spanish-mx ct
    Creo que ésta teoría es correcta. En México hemos perdido con el tiempo el uso del vosotros, pero mucha gente agrega la s como error común. El error tiene su origen justamente en esto.
    Saludos.
    Tggr
     
  13. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Una pregunta: en los países donde se vosea, ¿se dice "hablastes"? (En caso de voseo, no sería incorrecto.)
     
  14. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    Aha! Maybe this is why all my friends say it this way (Nicaragua & Costa Rica)... I didn't realize that this was the correct conjugation of the voseo! Everything I've read on the subject says that the preterite is to be conjugated exactly as in the "tu" form...
     
  15. tigger_uhuhu

    tigger_uhuhu Senior Member

    mexico city
    spanish-mx ct
    No uso el voceo, pero creo que es "teis" y no "tes" (sólo para plural, en singular "te")

    Hablaste (sing)
    Hablasteis (pl)

    Esperemos la confirmación de un español :)
     
  16. princesa azteca Senior Member

    Spain
    Spanish, Mexico
    No estoy de acuerdo con irisheyes en cuanto que si se oye mal no importe por que así habla la gente. En México si alguien dice "hablastes" nadie le dirá que esta mal, pero se le catalogará como ignorante.

    Ese error, que para mi punto de vista es malisisisímo, en México no es aceptado como correcto de ninguna manera.

    Mi recomendación... no usar la "s" al final, da una sensación de ignorancia, escasos recursos, no crees?

    saludos
     
  17. Dr. Quizá

    Dr. Quizá Senior Member

    Esuri - Huelva York.
    Spain - Western Andalusian Spanish.
    Estoy de acuerdo, y además añado que no creo que sea propio de ninguna comunidad, sino de individuos aislados y no bien hablados.
     
  18. Calario Senior Member

    Madrid
    Spain Spanish
    En España a veces la gente añade las "s" al final cuando hablan en plan "fino". Esto se debe a que en muchas zonas de España se "comen" las "s" del final de las palabras, y cuando quieren hablar imitando el acento neutro, ponen "s" donde no las hay.
    Esto les ocurre a muchos locutores y presentadores que al hablar parece que son serpientes:
    "Buenasss nochesss, estamosss entrevistando a Pepito Perez: Peptio, ayer vistessss a Paquita López ¿estuvistesss cenando con ella?"
     
  19. Dr. Quizá

    Dr. Quizá Senior Member

    Esuri - Huelva York.
    Spain - Western Andalusian Spanish.
    Lo que se diría "complejo de ignorante", vaya.
     
  20. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    Ouch! For a community of language learners, we seem to be very unaccepting and intolerant of others who may not have had the opportunity to learn.

    However, my point is this: the word "ain't" is considered to be a word used by the "uneducated" in America. When I hear it, of course it is going to bring certain stereotypes into my head. However, just because someone uses the word "ain't" does not mean that he does not know how to "correctly" speak English. Many of my friends, now that I live in Virginia, talk "country". For example,

    "Ma, I ain't gonna do nothin' t'day 'cause I just don' wanna." ("Mom, I'm not going to do anything today because I just don't want to.")

    This is a very relaxed form of speech, and does not indicate that my friends are uneducated or ignorant of proper English. In fact, they are highly educated (college & post-grads).

    The Spanish-speaking friends to whom I referred are not highly educated. But, it is how they speak among themselves: when we're out at a bar, on the job, etc., this is how they speak. When they are conversing in the presence of, for example, someone's parents, they use "hablaste" and not "hablastes". My observation has always been that it is just an extremely informal way of speaking. I will pay more attention in the future because I may be very wrong! :p
     
  21. Farahon05 New Member

    latino
    las palabras escritas;;;como hablastes.......es un palabra acopocada...qquiere decir que se omiten ( o comen ciertas letras).....en España se usa mucho.....hablasteis....sois....etc., y nosotros los latinos la hemos deformado........en hablastes.....y sos...........pero lo correcto seria hablasteis o hablaste......
     
  22. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    We're not just talking about making a few contractions, here, though. This is adding a consonant that isn't supposed to be there.
    Consider also that contractions are much less common in Spanish than they are in English. And I've seen some English speakers say that even contractions like "it's" and "I'd" are not proper English, and should never be used in writing!
     
  23. Hadamaris New Member

    Castellano
    En México lo correcto es hablaste, aunque existe mucha gente que agrega s al final de algunos verbos.
     
  24. alvarezp Senior Member

    Tijuana
    es_MX
    @irisheyes: Significa que decir "hablastes" en España está mal, pero decirlo en México está bien? Por favor no nos trates de esa manera. Una cosa es que se entienda una frase y otra que esté bien.

    Entenderlo así es ofensivo para mí, pues esta deformación viene de los pueblos, donde la educación es MUCHO menor que en la urbe. Si soy totalmente de mente abierta, debería aceptar "cisne" como sinónimo de "fregadero" por deformación de "sink" (pocho), "arrebasar" como deformación de "rebasar", "pushar" derivada de "push" usada por algunas con habla pocha.

    Lo voy a plantear de otra manera: una persona que está malacostumbrada a decir "hablastes", cuando visite España y un español la escuche decir eso, le va a costar trabajo, mucho trabajo, porque es un error que está justamente a la mitad entre la 2da del singular y la 2da del plural. En más de algún caso, el español no podrá corregir lo que la persona dice. No sabrá si quiso decir "hablaste" o "hablásteis". La diferencia entre la palabra correcta y la incorrecta es, en ambos casos, de 1 fonema.

    Además, es impráctico. Además está mal, todo mundo lo sabe, incluso algunos que lo hablan mal saben que está mal.
     
  25. asm Senior Member

    New England, USA
    Mexico, Spanish
    Lamentablemente muchos "errores/horrores" se van extendiendo en su uso hasta que llegan a ser aceptados; asi cambio nuestra lengua y asi cambiara. De ahi que los calificativos de ignorancia y de escasez de recursos pueden llegar a ser innecesarios en el futuro. Tienes razon que en Mexico no se ha llegado al punto de aceptar esta frase como correcta, pero no estes tan segura que en el futuro nuestros hijos o nietos lo digan sin mayor empacho.
    Estoy seguro que tu y yo usamos palabras/frases que tecnicamente son incorrectas, pero que asi nos fueron ensenadas en su momento, ademas de que fueron reforzadas por el entorno.

    Sobre el origen del problema, creo que estamos un poco como dando palos de piNata; algunas ideas son congruentes. recuerdo solamente que en Mexico no usamos el venisteis, asi que no lo creo como fuente del problema. Encontre una pagina de internet (y no la pongo como la verdad, sino como otro intento de darle a la pinata) que menciona que el problema pudo haber surgido por la semejanza con otras terminaciones con la segunda persona. Muchas de estas terminacicones son con "S", ?porque no asi VINISTES, incluso VENISTES? vieneS, veniaS, vendraS, vendriaS, vengaS, vinieraS ?y, por que no, vinistes?

    Interesante escuchar la opinion de un filologo

     
  26. Maeron Senior Member

    Mexico City
    Canada, English
    IrishEyes: I think you are right on with your assessment. To give another analogy in English, a common "error" (or regionalism) where I come from is "youse" as the plural of "you". Plenty of people stigmatize it as a marker of low social class, education or intelligence, but in my home territory, it just isn't so. There are geographical pockets of "youse"-speakers that cut all across social and educational lines---I don't say it myself, but I had friends in university that did. It's just the way people from certain places talk.

    I am doubtful of explanations of "hablastes" that appeal to voseo or vosotros, neither of which have ever been a feature of the speech of Mexicans who use "hablastes". Note that all conjugations of end with "s" with the single exception of the preterite; hablas, hables, hablabas, hablarás, hablaras, etc. It makes more sense to me that people just extended the "s" to the one tense that "correctly" doesn't have it.
     
  27. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Your hypothesis makes sense, perhaps more than mine. However:

    While Mexicans may not use vosotros and its conjugations today, I believe they did use it in past times.

     
  28. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    Finally someone that can agree! :D

    I myself am pretty well educated and I certainly know how to speak English correctly. However, I am from Philly and I absolutely use "youse" and "youse guys" when I'm talking to my Philly friends! Thanks for bringing that one up! It's completely incorrect and sounds horrible to those who aren't used to it (my parents included, who berate me constantly for my Philly-isms). We also say that we "go down the shore" instead of "go (down) to the shore". Gramatically incorrect; regionally acceptable (in informal situations).

    My point was simply that the type of speech one uses in informal speech does not necessarily indicate that person's level of education or knowledge of the grammatical structure of the language. I never said that "hablastes" is grammatically correct (in fact, I said the opposite), simply that it is acceptable as a means of communication since it is understood. Linguists say that there is no such thing as an "incorrect" form of language (as long as it is mutually intelligible), and that was what I was trying to get across.
     
  29. bluejazzshark Senior Member

    English, England
    I have heard "hablastes" used by Ecuadorians and Spaniards. I don't think it has anything to do with "vosotros", just the natural tendency to think that verbs in the second person singular should end with an "s", just as in all the other tenses.

    It's a spoken informal form (tu is after all informal!!!). People who say "hablastes" write "hablaste" normally.

    We can't be prescriptive about language: it evolves and grows, so you cant infer anything about the intelligence or other qualities of a person who speaks in a particular way.

    Just my 2p worth...

    - Blue
     
  30. CatXS Senior Member

    Spain
    Spain - Spanish
    Hablastes is a quite common mistake, but still a mistake. I do not think it can be considered as an informal way of speaking. I mean, it is not the same that saying "hablao" (skipping the "d"), while you write "hablado".
    In many situations, "hablastes" would be considere as a plain mistake related to lack of knowledge. At least, it is so in Spain.
     
  31. gisele73

    gisele73 Senior Member

    Norway
    Spanish - Peru
    I agree with you 100%, it is not "informal" way of speaking, for that matter we would use slang, but "hablastes" and the like are mistakes, pure and simple.
     
  32. gisele73

    gisele73 Senior Member

    Norway
    Spanish - Peru

    Hola Farahon05,

    Lo correcto es decir "hablasteis" (vosotros) o "hablaron" (ustedes), ambos se refieren a la segunda personal del plural.

    Un saludo :)
     
  33. bluejazzshark Senior Member

    English, England
    But where do you draw the line? that's the point....The following is a "mistake" in Latin America:Le conocí ayerBut it's common usage in most of Spain. And probably:Lo conocí ayersounds wrong to many Spaniards. I've heard a lot of Spanish speakers using the "s" on the end of the 2 person singular of the indefinido and so it's "current usage". It's what people say. There are many things that English speakers say that according to prescriptive grammaticians are "wrong", but nothing is wrong if it is understood and is shared by however small a language community. It's how language evolves.Saying "it's a mistake" is nothing more than saying "I wouldn't say that because people I talk to don't do it". There is no absolute grammar, and no book of absolute rules. The RAE tries to enforce rules, but even it cannot state categorically what is "correct" with respect to the use of something as basic as object pronouns, for example.-Blue
     
  34. CatXS Senior Member

    Spain
    Spain - Spanish
    Of course it is a difficult matter to draw the line between "common" and "correct", and it is not to me to determine it.
    However, should that mean that anything is acceptable?
    Because it is very common to hear things as:
    "el celebro" instead of "el cerebro"
    "me se cae al suelo" instead of "se me cae al suelo"
    "creo de que no es así" insted of "creo que es así"

    If nothing is wrong, in English lessons, you would get an A writing something like "I do not understand no nothing".
     
  35. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    I don't mean to beat a dead horse, since I think we will all have to eventually just agree to disagree. However, I just wanted to point out that languages absolutely, positively evolve and as they evolve, the new words, grammar structures, etc. are considered wrong. Until, of course, they become mainstream enough that someone declares that it is acceptable and even proper. Language, just as culture, is dynamic. It moves, it flows and it will always continue to change. I am not saying that "hablastes" is evolving to become a new "correct" form of speech (although it might); all I'm saying is that it is not our right or in our power to say that a form of speech is unacceptable.

    Below are some examples of Old English, Middle English, and Early Modern English. We're all aware of what Modern English sounds/looks like, so you can come to your own conclusions about what the speakers of the following English samples would have said about how we speak.

    Old English (from Beowulf--900AD)

    Hwæt! We Gar-Dena
    þeodcyninga,
    hu ða æþelingas
    Oft Scyld Scefing
    monegum mægþum,
    egsode eorlas.

    (Translation:
    Lo, praise of the prowess of people-kings of spear-armed Danes, in days long sped, we have heard, and what honor the athelings won!)

    Middle English (from the Canterbury Tales, by Geoffrey Chaucer--14th century)

    Here bygynneth the Book of the Tales of Caunterbury

    Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
    The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
    And bathed every veyne in swich licour...

    Early Modern English (from Othello, by William Shakespeare--1603AD)

    Iago:
    Though in the trade of Warre I have slaine men,
    Yet do I hold it very stuffe o'th' conscience
    To do no contriu'd Murder: I lacke Iniquitie
    Sometime to do me seruice. Nine, or ten times
    I had thought t'haue yerk'd him here vnder the Ribbes.

    Othello: 'Tis better as it is.



     
  36. gisele73

    gisele73 Senior Member

    Norway
    Spanish - Peru
    Hi,

    Well, I don´t agree with that. The fact that a grammatically incorrect word is understood and shared by a few or many people doesn´t turn that word into a correct one for that reason.
    It´s true that languages evolve, and it´s not in our hands to decide waht things should be accepted or not, but I hope things like "hablastes" never become accepted.
     
  37. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Are you saying people shouldn't label "hablastes" as incorrect?
     
  38. Orgullomoore Senior Member

    Oklahoma
    Inglés estadounidense
    I completely agree with IrishEyes. There is no reason for me as a speaker--as a learner--to resist the speech patterns of my teachers, especially if it's just informal speech and somewhere in my head I have the correct way to say it. I don't say 'hablastes' because the majority of the people I speak with don't say it. I do, however, hear it often and I just let it slide, I don't want to stop a conversation, slow things down, and hinder communication, just so the guy on the other end of the conversation knows that I know more than him. Languages evolve because people bend the rules, and I personally don't have any motivation to resist it...go with the flow.
     
  39. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    No, if you see my posts above (yes, I know I've said a lot! :)) I have stated that "hablastes" is certainly "incorrect" from a by-the-rules grammatical standpoint.
     
  40. alvarezp Senior Member

    Tijuana
    es_MX
    When you teach something, you also encourage to use what is taught, or at least, you leave it to the choice of the aprentice (unless you don't know it's wrong).

    However, these words, plain wrong, should either not be taught or be taught with their use discouraged, this is, only for their information. If the words were right or its use were ok, this would not be the case.
     
  41. gisele73

    gisele73 Senior Member

    Norway
    Spanish - Peru
    But again, "hablastes" is not "informal speech", it is wrong, probably it´s not easy to see the differecne for someone that is not a native speaker, but it´s like saying "tooks" instead of "took"or something like that. Ex: "She tooks the bus yesterday".
     
  42. Orgullomoore Senior Member

    Oklahoma
    Inglés estadounidense
    It's not hard to see the difference, we do the same thing in English. For example, I don't know a single friend who is completely sure how to conjugate drink, or sink.

    He sank 3 feet deep? He sinked 3 feet deep? Is he sunk righ now? No silly, he's sank!

    I drank so much last night. You didn't drink it, Bobby drunk it, and then we all drank a little together, but you woke up with the hungover because you got the most drunk.

    I truly don't know if the above paragraphs are gramatically correct, and as long as I don't have to write a formal essay on it, I truly don't care. My friends, and anyone I talk to (1) probably don't know either and (2) don't care either. "Hablastes" is incorrect, without a doubt, but when people say it, I understand it. There are plenty of people, uneducated as they are, that I speak with that say things like "A eso venemos", or "¿salemos, o nos quedamos un ratillo más?", and they are truly incorrect, but who am I to correct them?
     
  43. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    Much the same way people say "I gone to the store" or "He be back soon"? Or, as in a previous example, "youse guys" instead of "you guys"?

    If those are too anti-mainstream, how about the following? (I bet many of us make these "mistakes"!): How about "me too"? This is definitely incorrect, but who doesn't say it? "None of us are having dessert." should be "None of us is having dessert." "What are you bringing on vacation?" should be "What are you taking on vacation?". "Itch" is the noun, not a verb, so you can always "scratch an itch", but you can't technically "itch" anything.

    Yes, these are all "incorrect", but I understand them. Many are widely used and accepted. Just because more people make these "mistakes" than make the "hablastes" mistakes does not make them any more "acceptable" under grammatical terms...

    And, if you're still sure that what was once deemed incorrect should always be "incorrect", please fill in the blank:

    Today I work. Yesterday I __________.

    (Chances are, unless you've looked it up, you got that one wrong. If the theory that what is correct now should always be correct and that "incorrect" conjugations [like Orgullo's venemos or hablastes] should never be tolerated, you would have said "Yesterday I wrought.")
     
  44. Orgullomoore Senior Member

    Oklahoma
    Inglés estadounidense
    And don't forget "Lookit! A bird!" LOL, just playing, we say that alot around here, though :D
     
  45. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I think you will find a much greater percentage of English speakers using those phrases, than you will find Spanish speakers using "hablastes", though.
     
  46. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    Yes, which is why I asked: does excessive or widespread use of a "mistake" make it any more "correct" than a lesser-used one? I don't think so... you're letting stereotypes get in the way. Just because one phrase is less stigmatized, by the purist definition, it is still "wrong".
     
  47. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I would say that if/when enough people adopt a language mistake, it can become the norm. That's how languages evolve, to repeat something you said earlier. ;)

    Are you referring to me, specifically, or to other posters as well?
     
  48. irisheyes0583 Senior Member

    San José, Costa Rica
    English (USA)
    No, no, no! I'm sorry! :eek: (What I meant was, "se deja" or "se permite", not "dejas" or "permites"!)

    All I'm saying is that "hablastes" is widely used in some circles/areas and if Don Borinqueno hears it, he should realize he has not misheard... :D
     
  49. Orgullomoore Senior Member

    Oklahoma
    Inglés estadounidense
    So who are we to stop it? Let the language evolve... (Not that you could stop it, even if you tried ;))
     
  50. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    When a person who is learning Spanish asks about a particular construction, and native speakers tell that person that the construction is "incorrect", I don't see that necessarily as an attempt to stop change.
    It can be simply a description of the present stage of the language, what is currently considered valid, and what is not. Only the future will tell what Spanish will turn into tomorrow, but it's useful to know what it is today.
     
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