has been "disappeared"

Discussion in 'Italian-English' started by kedlone, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. kedlone New Member

    italiano
    Salve,
    In un racconto sulla terribile condizione della popolazione salvadoregna (costretta a subire le "persecuzioni" degli squadroni della morte del regime in El Salvador), il narratore, commentando la scomparsa del genero della donna più anziana del villaggio, dice:

    «Her son-in-law, husband of her daughter Maria Pia, has been "disappeared" by the El Salvadoran authorities.»

    E' chiaro che l'autore voglia giocare sull'ambiguità del termine Scomparire/ Essere ammazzati...
    quindi, in questo caso, la costruzione has been disappeared by è meglio metterla come: "è stato fatto sparire dalle autorità" o "è stato dato per scomparso/defunto dalle autorità"?
     
  2. london calling Senior Member

    SALERNO, ITALY
    UK ENGLISH
    The English is so bad we can only assume what the author meant by that.;)
     
  3. Tegs

    Tegs Mód ar líne

    Wales
    English (Ireland), Welsh, Irish
    The construction isn't great, but yes, your interpretation is correct Kedlone :)
     
  4. london calling Senior Member

    SALERNO, ITALY
    UK ENGLISH
    Ked gave two interpretations, Tegs.:) How can we know for sure which one is correct?:)
     
  5. joanvillafane Senior Member

    U.S., New Jersey
    U.S. English
    Hi kedlone and hi LC - it's not really bad English, it's the term for a particular kind of disappearance under political regimes as in Argentina. Maybe you can't say "è stato fatto sparire" in Italian but that's the meaning. In this Wiki article, the quote from Bono (in the box) uses the English phrase "have been disappeared." I'm interested to see how this translates......


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothers_of_the_Disappeared
     
  6. london calling Senior Member

    SALERNO, ITALY
    UK ENGLISH
    Jo, the Italian's fine, that's not the problem here.;) And if you can confirm that this is what is meant, fine.:) But I still think the English is terrible: echoing Spanish sentence structure just doesn't work, as it sounds like a bad literal translation (do you think Bono invented this?:)).

    PS the link is to "sainted"...;)
     
  7. Tegs

    Tegs Mód ar líne

    Wales
    English (Ireland), Welsh, Irish
    Sorry, I didn't read the second translation - I meant to refer to "è stato fatto sparire dalle autorità" which may not be fantastic Italian, but it's what I think the English means :eek:

    Joan - I'm used to hearing about "the disappeared" or "make disappear" but I have to say that "to be disappeared by someone" is a bit weird. Personally, I would've paraphrased to avoid that particular construction if I were the author. e.g. Her son-in-law is among the "disappeared" of the XX regime or something like that.
     
  8. joanvillafane Senior Member

    U.S., New Jersey
    U.S. English
    Tegs, I think you're right. It's the passive voice construction that makes it strange. I like your solution - Her son-in-law is among the disappeared.....
     
  9. Paulfromitaly

    Paulfromitaly MODerator

    Brescia (Italy)
    Italian
    has been "disappeared" does sound like a calque from Italian or Spanish, rather than something a native English speaker would say or write..
    I think you'd say "to dispose of someone" in English.
     
  10. joanvillafane Senior Member

    U.S., New Jersey
    U.S. English
    Paul, but the entire expression (passive, active, adjective or verb) specifically evokes this political connotation. It is definitely a part of English now, at least in this context.
     
  11. Leo57 Senior Member

    Yorkshire
    UK English
    Hi Joan,
    I agree, and it has been part of English for a while now. The word "disappeared" was written with quotation marks for a reason. I don't find anything strange about the way it has been written.
    This might help everyone.
    disappeared
    Ciao
    Leo:)
     
  12. Tegs

    Tegs Mód ar líne

    Wales
    English (Ireland), Welsh, Irish
    I agree with Paul that it's translationese, but it stems how we now use the word "disappeared" in English - there is no good way to make it a verb in the political context, so it's problematic. "Dispose of" just isn't used in this context the way that "disappeared" is :)
     
  13. aefrizzo

    aefrizzo Senior Member

    Palermo, Italia
    italiano
    Non so dire se l'espressione inglese è così bad per caso o per intenzione. Ricordo però l'espressione italiana che usava la stampa di opposizione (anni di piombo), quando qualche terrorista italiano o tedesco veniva trovato morto in cella: XY è stato "suicidato". Nessun linguista si scandalizzò, il senso della sgrammaticatura era evidente.
     
  14. stella_maris_74

    stella_maris_74 Mod About Chocolate

    Rome
    Italian - Italy
    :thumbsup: Stavo per fare questo stesso esempio!
    Secondo me l'inglese "has been "disappeared'" di questa frase è intenzionale esattamente come quella celebre espressione italiana.
     
  15. london calling Senior Member

    SALERNO, ITALY
    UK ENGLISH
    I've obviously been out of the country too long.:) However, it really does sound bad to me.

    In any case, one thing's for sure: we can confirm that it means "è stato fatto sparire".;)
     
  16. kedlone New Member

    italiano
    Grazie a tutti voi per i suggerimenti, i commenti, i link, ecc....:)
    A questo punto, dopo aver assodato che la traduzione migliore di has been "disappeared" by sia "è stato fatto sparire", concordo anch'io sul fatto che l'autore abbia scelto questa strana costruzione di "disappear" in maniera voluta.... probabilmente sia per creare l'idea di un calco linguistico con lo spagnolo (più plausibilmente), sia per rimandare ad un uso linguistico specifico, che potrebbe essere nato da situazioni particolari (vedi gli esempi di london calling ed aefrizzo).

    Grazie ancora a tutti :D
     
  17. Pat (√2) Senior Member

    Italia
    Italiano
    Visto che i desaparecidos sono "gli scomparsi", direi "è stato fatto 'scomparire' dalle autorità salvadoregne".
     
  18. TimLA

    TimLA Senior Member

    Los Angeles
    English - US
    I'm with you. This is classic AE - we will take a verb and change it to an adjective, a noun, or even another verb - any time we want.
    Note that it is in quotes, and an argument can be made that "the disappeared" (and it similar words) is so common in AE
    (particularly in an Hispanic area where everyone knows about the the "desaparecidos") that most of us would recognize it.
    Two peoples separated by...:)

    'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  19. london calling Senior Member

    SALERNO, ITALY
    UK ENGLISH
    No Tim, this time it's just me, I'm afraid (out of touch with Blighty, that's me!:D).;) Leo57 from Yorkshire thinks it's ok.:)

    PS. I adore Jabberwocky....;)).
     
  20. Einstein

    Einstein Senior Member

    Milano, Italia
    UK, English
    I'm so used to the phrase "è stato suicidato" (Pinelli) that "has been 'disappeared' by the authorities" sounds perfectly comprehensible, as long as we use the quotes.
    In Italian a phrase with "sparito" or "scomparso", similar to the one with "suicidato", might not be so easily comprehensible. "Fatto sparire" doesn't translate the irony of the comment. Maybe "è stato 'dato per scomparso' dalle autorità"?
     
  21. Anja.Ann

    Anja.Ann Senior Member

    Lombardia
    Italian
    Ciao a tutti :)

    Sono d'accordo con Einstein :): in italiano non è così facile, anche perché per indicare le "persone 'fatte sparire' dalle autorità" usiamo il termine originale in spagnolo: "desaparecidos".
    Potremmo anche dire "Suo cognato, il marito della figlia Maria Pia, è "desaparecido" per le autorità ...", ma credo che si perda l'incisività del messaggio in lingua inglese.
     
  22. kedlone New Member

    italiano
    Sai Einstein che la tua idea non è niente male!!!!;)
     
  23. longplay Senior Member

    italian
    Ripristino del messaggio cancellato (per mio errore)::eek:

    Salve!:) Io proporrei "é stato 'scomparso' " o "l' hanno 'scomparso' ", perché rispecchia sia il testo inglese, sia il famoso "l' hanno 'suicidato' " (che forse
    è in uso dagli anni '50, dopo la misteriosa morte in prigione di Gaspare (?) Pisciotta, famoso collaboratore di Salvatore Giuliano).
     
  24. CPA Senior Member

    Rome
    British English/Italian - bilingual
    Propongo: ...è stato "desaparecido" dalle autorità...
     

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