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Have any of you ever been burglarized?

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by robjh22, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. robjh22 Senior Member

    U.S.A. & English
    I need to see the above phrase using the always challenging se impersonal, e.g., "Se le informó de sus derechos?"

    My feeble try: "¿A algunos de ustedes se les han alguna vez robado sus casas?"

    Even harder and probably more wrong is to mix the se impersonal with "allanar":

    "A algunos de ustedes se les alguna vez allanó sus moradas"?

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  2. Li'l Bull

    Li'l Bull Senior Member

    Spanish (Spain)
    Your try does not sound too good in Spanish. ;)

    My try (Spanish from Spain): "¿Alguna vez les han robado a alguno de ustedes en casa?" This would be formal, as we are using "ustedes". It would be suitable for rather formal contexts (in Spain, you might hear a sentence like that on a TV ad for security alarms).

    However, if you don't want to sound so formal (sometimes advertisements prefer to sound more direct, more friendly) you would use "vosotros", therefore: "¿Alguna vez os han robado a alguno de vosotros en casa?"

    You're right: your second version is even more weird. I've only heard the noun "allanamiento de morada", and only in legal contexts. "Me allanaron mi morada" is way too weird! (as "morada" is a very old-fashioned word).
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  3. robjh22 Senior Member

    U.S.A. & English
    Thanks Li'l Bull. I really need the se impersonal form if you don't mind one more try.

    And this is for Latin America. Allanar and morada are used regularly there.

    Also, your "les han robada en casa?" sounds like being personally robbed while in your house, an "atraco" if you will. I am referring to
    a case where a person enters your house without your knowing it and stealing your guitar or silverware.

    Thanks again
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  4. Biffo Senior Member

    England
    English - England
    Just a British English note to say that we don't say "burglarize" we simply use the verb "to burgle"

    E.g. Have any of you been burgled?
     
  5. robjh22 Senior Member

    U.S.A. & English
    Great, I'll take it. Thanks, Biff. I defer always to my British friends on English spelling, grammar, syntax, and usage. Even your accents are better!

    But my dilemma is really with the se impersonal form of the spanish equivalent of burgle or burglarize.

    Perhaps I should have posted this in the grammar forum.
     
  6. Li'l Bull

    Li'l Bull Senior Member

    Spanish (Spain)
    I'm not that good at Spanish grammar, but I can't think of a sentence with se that expresses what you mean (if I'm getting it right). A sentence with se, using the same construction as in Se les informó de sus derechos, would be Se producen muchos allanamientos de morada en España - the question would be formed just by adding question marks to this sentence and then using the correct intonation.

    The thing is that an impersonal construction implies that the person being robbed is not mentioned (e.g. in Se roba mucho en España, both the robber and the person that is robbed are omitted; in Se les informó de sus derechos, the person who informed them is not included, although it does include the people that were informed, if not by name). However, in your question in English, "you" is included.

    ¿Se les han robado alguna vez? :cross:

    ¿Les han robado alguna vez? :tick:

    ¿Te/os/les han robado alguna vez? :tick:

    ¿Se ha robado en este barrio alguna vez? :confused: (sounds grammatically correct, but unlikely)

    ¿Se han producido robos en este barrio alguna vez? :tick:

    I insist, the way I see it, in my neck of the woods your sentence would be best translated as ¿A alguno de ustedes les han entrado a robar en casa alguna vez? (I think Biffo is right: somebody is burgled; a house is burglarized (in AmE)).

    By the way, if this is for Latin America, it's usually safer to use the polite form usted(es).
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  7. robjh22 Senior Member

    U.S.A. & English
    Thanks again, Li'l Bull. I'm sure you're right but I'm afraid we're mis-communicating. I take full responsibility for that.

    By "se impersonal," I don't mean "passive voice."

    And by simple passive voice, I mean something like: "Se dice que los Madrileños se visten bien."

    By "se impersonal," I mean something like this: "A los Madrileños se les instruyó que se vistieran bien." And as you see in this example, the person being ordered to dress well is mentioned specifically.

    I need to use that second form, for an exercise, with the Spanish equivalent of "burgle" or "burglarize." It doesn't matter which English word we prefer or whether the "se impersonal" is commonly heard (I do see it in print all the time.)

    I understand that "Les han robado alguna vez" may be the best and only way to say it, though I really want to put that "se" in there somehow.

    Thanks again.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  8. Li'l Bull

    Li'l Bull Senior Member

    Spanish (Spain)
    Hello again, robjh22. You have me thinking...

    I don't think the structure you call "se impersonal" works with all verbs or in all cases. I would say there are two main groups of verbs that can be used like this:

    1) verbs of saying: decir (Se les dijo que...), comunicar (Se les comunicó que...), asegurar (Se les aseguró que...), sugerir (Se les sugirió que...)

    2) verbs of command: ordenar (Se les ordenó que...), mandar (Se les mandó que...), obligar (Se les obligó a que...), instruir (Se les instruyó que...)

    I'm sure there are many others (maybe you have a book of Spanish grammar at hand).

    I'm really intrigued. If this is an exercise and you're going to be given an answer by a teacher, I would like you to let me know. :)

    One final thought: as you know, what is grammatically possible is not always in use, and as far as language and intelligibility is concerned, some expressions are so convoluted (such as the one you're trying to come up with) that they're either incorrect or so unlikely that even a native speaker of Spanish has to wait and think for a very long time (like myself).

    By the way, the translation of "burgle" or "burglarize" poses further difficulties. But that's a different kettle of fish.

    Edit: I think this is what you're looking for (however weird it sounds to me; I think nobody, and I mean nobody, would use this in Spain):

    1) (with vosotros) ¿A alguno de vosotros se os ha entrado a robar en casa alguna vez? (this version is more usual: ¿A alguno de vosotros os han entrado a robar en casa alguna vez?)

    2) (with ustedes) ¿A alguno de ustedes se les ha entrado a robar en casa alguna vez? (this version is more usual: ¿A alguno de ustedes les han entrado a robar en casa alguna vez?)

    If I were your teacher, I would recommend using the sentences in blue and avoid the ones in red like the plague.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  9. robjh22 Senior Member

    U.S.A. & English
    YES!! HAAAA-LELLUJAH, ALLELUIA, ALLELUIA, ALLELUIA!!!

    Thanks so much. I have no teacher other than you. Seriously, I don't. I just like the elegance of the se impersonal and I hear the English version frequently on the job and need to use it for translations (though not necessarily with burglary).

    Thanks again!
     
  10. Li'l Bull

    Li'l Bull Senior Member

    Spanish (Spain)
    If I were your teacher, I would recommend using the sentences in blue and avoid the ones in red like the plague.

    Bear that in mind, my friend.
     
  11. robjh22 Senior Member

    U.S.A. & English
    In other words, use the red always under all circumstances if you want to sound like a native in the barrios of Sevilla.

    KIDDING!

    You're a genius.

    You ARE my teacher!
     
  12. Guido.io Junior Member

    Mexico City
    Spanish - Mexico
    I would just say:

    ¿Alguna vez han robado en su casa? This is if I wanted to sound neutral.
    ¿Alguna vez se han metido a robar a su casa? And this is a Mexican expression. And there's a "se" in it.
     
  13. robjh22 Senior Member

    U.S.A. & English
    Thanks, G. Much appreciated!
     
  14. juan082937 Senior Member

    español
    Se le informó de sus derechos ( Se informó a él de sus derechos)
    Informar v.Transitivo.
    Informar a alguien de/sobre algo, la información se expresa o complementa con la preposición de/sobre. Se le informó de sus derechos. (leísmo aceptado, masculino por DRAE)
    Esta construcción con el SE ( marcador de la pasiva) y complemento directo es el sujeto de la pasiva,lo/le ( masculino) él fue informado de sus derechos = se le/lo informó de sus derechos
    Toda oración pasiva refleja sin agente expreso es semánticamente impersonal. Estas son oraciones que tienen sujeto sintáctico pero no agente expreso.

    1. Se le informó de sus derechos
    2. Dicen que mañana lloverá
    3. Llaman a la puerta
    4. Uno se mata trabajando
    5. Se rompió el vaso (sujeto) pero no el agente. Impersonal semántica como las anteriores.

    Hay dos tipos de IMPERSONAL semántica y la impersonal sintáctica que no tiene sujeto, y sólo se usa en tercera persona singular y se refiere a personas con ‘a’ personal ( complemento directo).Las pasivas con ‘SE’ pueden ir en tercera persona singular o plural y se refiere a cosas o acciones, pueden ir con infinitivo o que con subjuntivo en singular :
    Se prohíbe fumar, se prohíbe que fumes (singular) y el verbo de las pasivas va en singular o plural según sea singular o plural el sujeto gramatical.

    Se respeta /tercera persona singular) a los ancianos (CD) 3ra persona singular, no hay sujeto (IMPERSONAL SINTÁCTICA).


    Se entraron y robaron su casa ( su casa fue robada ). Pasiva refleja impersonal semántica
     
  15. robjh22 Senior Member

    U.S.A. & English
    Thank you, juan.
     

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