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He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us

Discussion in 'עברית (Hebrew)' started by EntreNousFilsDePasteur, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. EntreNousFilsDePasteur Senior Member

    Français
    Bonjour.

    Would you be so kind as to translate this sentence in hebrew for me ?


    Toda raba
     
  2. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    הוא מתהלך בינינו, אך הוא לא אחד מאיתנו
    משלנו
     
  3. EntreNousFilsDePasteur Senior Member

    Français
    Thank you very much Arielipi
     
  4. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    I guess the last two words are two different options ?
    And the pronunciation, if OP is interested in that:
    Hu mithalekh beyneynu, akh hu lo ekhad me'itanu / mishelanu
     
  5. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Yes, notice my corrections, this is a kaf not a khet
     
  6. EntreNousFilsDePasteur Senior Member

    Français
    Merci beaucoup pour la prononciation hadronic :p
    C'est très gentil de me l'avoir expliqué.
     
  7. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    But the pronunciation is the same, and kh is less misleading than ch.
    Moreover, why do you transliterate the tsere + yod once as "ey", and once as "e"?
     
  8. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    the pronunciation shouldnt be the same; i transliterate the way people say.
     
  9. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
  10. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    And people pronounce ch and kh the same, don't they....

    *I'm not in the oriental/ashkenazi pronunciation debate but on how we should transliterate (modern, ashkenazi) Hebrew
     
  11. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    i follow these rules in that order when i transliterate:
    1) the letter that is in hebrew
    2) the way people say
    3) the way i say
    4) the way it should be said
     
  12. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Unless I didn't fully understand the article, but it doesn't explain why the first "ey" is kept in pronunciation and why the second is reduced to "e". For me, it looks pretty random : "en" instead of "eyn", "bet-sefer" instead of "beyt-sefer" but "beytenu" ... (i'm *not* talking of the 'reverse' mechanism like "teysha" ).
     
  13. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    According to the comment is safa-ivrit, it's not clear that the second "י" of בינינו was pronounced historically as "ey". Therefore not necessarily a reduction.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  14. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Yes, but "history" doesn't exist for Hebrew :). There's only what the first people *thought* it should be pronounced...
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  15. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    It *should* be beyt-sefer.
     
  16. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    I'm not sure what you mean here. Anyway, there's a tradition since ancient times of how to read the Bible. We cover the Torah again and again every year.

    For בינינו I couldn't find a good source that explains the diffrerence between how it's written and how it's pronounced.
     
  17. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    I think i once heard that every tzere that opens a word is a tzere with ey, and that every tzere that ends the word is an e.
     
  18. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    Beynenu is supposedly "our beyn" or "our *beynim/beynaim". So we can compare it to other cased like יָדֵנוּ yadenu (our hand) and יָדֵינוּ yadeynu (our hands), both with tzere. If it's "our *beynim/beynaim" then the expected pronunciation is beyneynu, if "our beyn" the expected pronunciation is bynenu and the expected spelling is ביננו. Therefore בינינו looks like an exceptional case, in regard to either the spelling or the pronunciation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
  19. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    בינינו comes from the singular בין therefore the second tzere is e and not ey; https://www.safa-ivrit.org/spelling/beinenu.php
     
  20. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    That link has already been provided above. So for "our hands", do you say "yadenu" or "yadeynu" ? Do you insist on pronouncing the "ey" just to distinguish it from the singular ? And how about "bateynu" (our houses) ? Because there couldn't be ambiguity with "beytenu" (our house), would you also say the "ey" ?
     
  21. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    Normally "e" for singular, "ey" for plural, with exceptions I guess. So yadenu is singular, yadeynu is plural. It's not just to distinguish, it's simply how we say the words. Bateyno is pronounced with "ey".

    Note that the "e" vs. "ey" are sometimes mixed in careless colloquial talks, so hearing a "wrong" pronunciation (in the TV for example) shouldn't be a surprise.
     
  22. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Oh, so you mean that pronunciation "beynenu" is not because of ey simplification, but because of an interpretation / feeling speakers have that it is singular underlyingly?
     
  23. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    dont forget hebrew is eager to slide things through, making shifts/diphthongs/eases sounds to make talking consistent.
     
  24. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    To me, the first two vowels of בינינו sound very similar, but maybe that's because the second one is stressed, so it seems to lengthen it to the same length as the first. It doesn't sound like, for example, the vowel in קסם.
    I'm not mentioning vowel/niqud names on purpose, since we are just talking about the common pronunciation here and that seems to differ from the intended pronunciation at times, such as the given example about אין, which sounds like it should be written with segol.
     
  25. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    There are two possible reasons:

    1. In Ashkenazi accent the two vowels really sound alike
    2. As explained in the safa-ivrit link, modern speakers tend to either change the spelling according to sound, or change the sound according to the spelling. So some may read it beyneynu.

    קסם and segolites in general are a different issue.
     
  26. shaliach Junior Member

    English - U.S.A.
    This is a bit like a phrase found in the New Testament (1 John 2:19).

    In one Hebrew Bible I have, it reads as:

    מִקִּרְבֵּנוּ יָצְאוּ אֲבָל לֹא־מֵאִתָּנוּ הָיוּ

    Granted, that's only part of the verse. But that's what this phrase brought to mind. Curious if this helps at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013

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