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Heczo István

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by Saluton, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Saluton Senior Member

    Moscow, Russia
    Russian
    Hello. I'm translating the credits of a Russian movie. They include a Hungarian name written in Russian. I think it should be transcribed as Heczo István, but I can't find anything on an actor with that name on the Internet, so I want to make sure I transcribe it correctly. Also, the problem is the movie was partially made in Holland with many Dutch actors and he played a Dutch salesman, so I'm concerned the surname might be Dutch, not Hungarian.

    So, is it Heczo István?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    How is this name written in Russian?
     
  3. Saluton Senior Member

    Moscow, Russia
    Russian
    Иштван Хецо
     
  4. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    According to the Russian transcription, it could be Hecó or Heczó István in Hungarian. The proper word doesn't sound very Hungarian to me (neighter Dutch), but as surname it's immaginable. However, I've also tried some variants on the Internet, but without any result ...
     
  5. Saluton Senior Member

    Moscow, Russia
    Russian
    So you're sure the O must have an accent?
     
  6. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    "Normally" yes, because no Hungarian word ends with a "short o" (the accent in Hungarian indicates the length of the vowel, not the stress). So typically also the surnames ending in "o" are accented, e.g. Jancsó, Radó etc ...

    In case of surnames, of course, there is no rule, one can have whatever surname of whatever origin, however it is unusual to find Hungarian surnames ending in "short o" (except if they are clearly of foreign origin and maintain the original orthography).
     
  7. Saluton Senior Member

    Moscow, Russia
    Russian
    Alright, thanks.
     
  8. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    I was wondering whether the name could also be Kec(z)ó István in a transcription but I only found some on Facebook, no actor leapt forward to offer a quick solution.:(

    As "h" is "strong" in Russian, some people pronounce it as "k" in Hungarian, that gave the idea that maybe a "weak k" could enter as an "h" into Russian...
     
  9. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    I agree Zsanna, the Cyrillic "x" could be as a "weat k" or mixing the Hungarian "k" with the Hungarian "h"... something like a "Kh" (I think). Most Spanish speakers pronounce it like a "j" (Juan, juventud, jirafa).

    About the last "o"... this isn't so simple because we don't know the real origin of the surname or its pronounciation in Russian, because the Russian "o" could have 3 different sounds according to its position:

    1) In a stressed syllable would sound like a Hungarian "o" (short vowel) or like the Spanish "o".
    2) In a syllable before a stressed syllable would sound like the English "a" in the word "about". In the API phonetic transcription it would be the vowel Schwa
    3) In the rest of positions the vowel could sound like the Spanish "a" or the Hungarian "á".

    Ps: I asked in the Russian forum and an user said me that Иштван Хецо is an Hungarian actor.
     
  10. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    One more thing... the Russian "E" would sound like "ye" in the Spanish word yerba or like "je" in the Hungarian word jel
     
  11. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    NiNulla:

    Honestly, I search in several websites about this actor but nothing. The only source is his name, Хочу в тюрьму, among the supporting actor of the Russian film "Хочу в тюрьму"; no biography in Google, no pictures... nothing.
     
  12. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I think there is no reason to transcribe an original Kec(z)ó with an initial X in Russian, it would be simply Kецо in this case.
     
  13. Saluton Senior Member

    Moscow, Russia
    Russian
    I didn't expect this thread to become so long and to evoke another thread for sure :) and I didn't expect many Hungarian speakers knew so much about Russian :)

    All right, I can see the surname is most probably Heco, according to NiNulla's deleted comment. Of course it's not a Russian surname and there's no reason to think it starts with a K. I knew myself Иштван Хецо was a Hungarian actor and who said this in the Russian forum just found his name (in Russian) on the Internet, like me.

    The other comments made by cisarro and NiNulla are either incorrect or irrelevant. It's too long and off topic in a Hungarian forum to explain why.

    I've already submitted the actor's name as Heczo, István for the IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0167231/fullcredits#cast) and that's how it will come up today or one of these days, but I'll make sure to correct the surname as Heco when it's online. We'll hardly ever know if it's the correct spelling or not, which can't be helped, I suppose.

    I think it'll be reasonable to close this thread now.

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
  14. NiNulla Senior Member

    Russian - Abroad
    If my comment was incorrect why you should change your spelling to mine? Strange. :)
     
  15. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Why if I may ask?
    Apart from my (admittedly partly guessing) argument above (linguistic + real example with K, none with H), it wouldn't be surprising because a lot of Hungarian names go through funny changes once their owners live abroad. :)
    Sometimes they even pick names that bare no relationship with the original - in which case there may not be a real solution to this problem.
     
  16. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Yes, Zsanna, but we are speaking about the Russian transcription of a supposed Hungarian surname. Tell me an example when the Hungarian "K" is transcribed (or translitterated) as "X" in Russian ...

    (maybe we could find some "erroneous" example, but it's not typical at all ...)
     
  17. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    I can't, I'm afraid but I don't think it should stop anybody to consider other arguments.

    And what about the argument that there is absolutely no result with Hecó but there is with Kecó? (It sounded more likely to my ears with a K from the beginning but it is not an argument, I know, just a native's opinion.)

    With the transcription of names there are more than one factors that can influence the spelling in a foreign language. Our man in question may have started off in another country, and the Russian spelling may follow that (=not Hungarian) pronunciation. or maybe he himself chose such a spelling for his name (for whatever reason).

    I have seen lots and lots of examples of Hungarian names that went through some changes in foreign spelling to approach the local pronunciation (or meaning, or simply it sounded better or more acceptable in a slightly different form), haven't you?

    But that is getting on to be speculation, so I'd better stop.:)
     
  18. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    I agree Zsanna, we have to speculate from the Russian transcription (our only source maybe).

    But, to finish my answer and to avoid some off-topic, I want to insist: the Cyrillic "X" (named Kha or Ha in English) in Russian is very closer to the Scottish English "ch" in "loch", or the Spanish "j" in "Juan". So for some people the Hungarian "h" is enough; the difference between the Russian "h" (or "X" in Cyrillic) and the Hungarian "h" is the same between /x/ and /h/ in the International Phonetic Alphabet.

    That's why I vote for Kheco :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  19. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Isten ments :), nem ez volt a célom. Tény, hogy valami nincs rendben a "Hecó" Pistával, mintha elnyelte volna a föld, se híre se hamva ...
     
  20. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Thank you, both.:)
    I have remembered only after my last post that the argument of the Hungarian k having an equivalent in Russian is all very good but then why is it that the German H (in some WWII figures' names) enters Russian with a "g"-sound and letter? (E.g. "Gitler")

    (I'll have to delete this if it turns out to be totally off topic!)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  21. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    About "Gitler/Hitler" (I hope it was my last off-topic hahahaha):

    In Cyrillic, Hitler is transliterating as Гитлер; in the standard Russian the letter "Г" (Ghe) represents the voiced velar plosive /g/ (there is some exceptions) and generally is romanized as "g". Anyway, sometimes the Ghe represents the voiced glottal fricative /ɦ/ and romanized as "h" (Belarusian, Ukrainian).

    End of all of my off-topics hahahaha :p
     
  22. Mravinszky

    Mravinszky Junior Member

    Kedves Zsanna

    The reason for german H being rendered by Russian Г (G) so often (but not always!) is connected to the fact that the Slavic sound G developed into H in Ukrainian, Belorussian and Czech. So in the Slavic languages there is a relation between these two sounds. One example: Russian город (gorod) City - or in the short form -град (-grad) - is etymologically equal to Czech hrad (not the same meaning, though). In Ukrainian you regularly pronounce the г as [h]. In Russian, you can sometimes hear a word like господи (gospodi "Lord!") pronounced with a sound very near to "h" (hospodi!), more a voiced variant of "h".

    But this doesn't really touch the question why anyone should transcribe a sound existing in Russian not with that Russian letter... Kecó would invariably give Кецо, never Хецо. Or, as Gertrude Stein would put it, a K is a K is a K... ;)
     
  23. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Thank you, both.
    So this H-G phenomenon is an exception - and the rule is ... that otherwise the pronunciation is followed?
    But whose in this case, I wonder.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012

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