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Hindi: फरमाना

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by borris83, Jan 12, 2010.

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  1. borris83 New Member

    India -Tamil & English
    I encountered this word फरमाना many times.. I understand that this is for honorific usage but don't know exactly when to use it...

    For example in the following sentences:

    आप क्या इरशाद फरमाते हैं
    What do you say?

    आप क्या दरयाफ्त फरमाते हैं
    What do you ask

    And I also remember reading this word somewhere where it meaning was different.. Please let me know what it exactly mean?

    There is another word too which is used in similar honorific sentences: तसरीफ.. Please help me with the usage of these words.. And let me know if there are any others words of this kind
     
  2. huhmzah

    huhmzah Senior Member

    Ithaca, NY
    Urdu - English
    Hey!

    फ़र्माना on it's own is just another way of saying कहना. It's not exactly honorific because it's fairly common for people to use it when referring to themselves as well -- it's just a politer register of speech. People (at least Urdu speakers) use it most often when speaking to strangers, in formal settings or during public speaking. It's related to the word फ़र्मान (also pronounced फ़र्मां) which is आज्ञापत्र in Hindi.

    "हुज़ूर आप क्या फ़र्मा रहे थे?" = What were you saying sir?
    "जी, मैं फ़र्मा रहा था कि..." = Well, I was saying that...

    When फ़र्माना appears in a compound-verb (like the two examples you've listed) it stands in for the verb करना. Urdu attaches "करना/फ़र्माना" as an auxiliary onto Farsi and Arabic loanwords:

    Arabic loan-word इरशाद: guidance, instruction, exhortation -- इरशाद फ़रमान => To instruct, to exhort etc.

    Farsi loan-word दर्याफ़्त: inquiry, research, exploration -- दर्याफ़्त करना = दर्याफ़्त फ़रमाना => to do research, to explore, to inquire

    तशरीफ़ (from the word शर्फ़) means honor (Hindi: गौरव). A polite way of saying (1) आना is तशरीफ़ लाना: वह कल लाहोर तशरीफ़ ला रही हैं [She's coming to Lahore tomorrow] (2) जाना is तशरीफ़ ले जाना: आप कहाँ तशरीफ़ ले जा रहे हैं? [Where are you going?] and (3) बैठना is तशरीफ़ रखना: यहाँ तशरीफ़ रखें -- मैं अभी आता हूँ [Sit here, I'll be with you right away]

    Hope that helps!
     
  3. borris83 New Member

    India -Tamil & English
    Thank you very much for the detailed explanation
     
  4. doom9 Junior Member

    USA
    United States (birth country)/India (English, Gujarati)
    What exactly does nosh farmana mean? Does it mean to eat?
     
  5. huhmzah

    huhmzah Senior Member

    Ithaca, NY
    Urdu - English
    Yup, nosh farmana means "to consume" i.e. it could mean to eat or to drink or to smoke.

    "Aap kya nosh farmâna pasand karenge?" = What would you like to eat?
    "UnhoN ne jâm nosh farmaya" = He had a drink.
    "YahâN tambâko nosh farmâna manâ hai" = Smoking is prohibited here.
     
  6. Not.A.Linguist Junior Member

    New York
    Hindi
    @OP,

    फरमाना is NOT a Hindiword. It's a Urdu word. Depending on the context of use, equivalent Hindi words would be different.
     
  7. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    It is a Hindi word. People do use it.
     
  8. Not.A.Linguist Junior Member

    New York
    Hindi
    I disagree. Please post some information to back up your claim if you want it to be believed.

    फरमान and फरमाना are Urdu words. I am giving some examples with HIndi equivalents:

    Urdu Hindi
    tashreef farmaaiye - Aaiye, baithiye (Baithnaa (To sit)
    Nosh farmaaiye - Khaaiye (Khaanaa - To eat)
    आप क्या इरशाद फरमाते हैं - Aap kyaa kahte hain (Kehna - To say)

    All examples given in the post 1 and 2 in this thread are Urdu sentences.


    People also say - Kyaa aap Railway Station jaa rahey hain?

    That doesn't mean "Railway Station" is a Hindi word? Or is it (according to the popular belief on this site)?
     
  9. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    It's apples and oranges to discuss etymology and whether a word is Hindi or Urdu. <farmānā> has a Persian etymology. <badalnā> has either an Arabic or Persian etymology. Are you going to tell me these are not Hindi as well?

    Must a word be a tatsam or tadbhav to be Hindi then? What's wrong with looking at these words as different registers of speech?

    People also say <minṭ> for minute. Does this no longer count as Hindi?
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2010
  10. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    PG,
    Well, I know many purists worry about etymologies! I don't, although where possible I have been presenting them here just as an extra, whether we are talking of Persian, Arabic, Sanskrit, Prakrit etc. Always fun to know word origins, I think. But this is not at all necessary given that, like you, I feel usage is all that really matters. However, etymologies can give you an insight into word relationships. That is fun too!

    You are spot on about this!

    The etymology of فرمان फरमान farmaan and فرمانا फरमाना farmaanaa is Persian

    فرمان फरमान farmaan: related to the Persian verb فرمودن farmoodan = to bid, command, order, say.

    فرمانا फरमाना farmaanaa was formed by using the verb's present stem فرما farmaa and adding نا naa to make an infinitive as per Prakrit rules.

    فرمانا फरमाना farmaanaa is used in everyday Hindi (as it is in Urdu). Not only do we know this from experience but also some (more comprehensive) Hindi dictionaries list it – both in print and on online, e.g. here:

    फरमाना
    . [फा.फर्मान] कोईकामकहना। (बड़ोकेसंबंधमेंसम्मान-सूचकरूपमेंप्रयुक्त) जैसे-आपकाफरमानाबिलकुलदुरूस्तहै।समानार्थकशब्द -

    Similarly, from the Persian verb نوشیدن nooshiidan = to drink / consume, we get نوش noosh pronounced as nosh by us, i.e. with the <o> sound like the one in pole.

    نوش كرنا \ فرمانا nosh karnaa /farmaanaa = to consume

    We’ve had this recently here and here.

    One can always argue that farmaanaa is not a shuddh Hindi word but it is used in colloquial Hindi.

    (PS: badal, badalnaa have an Arabic etymology. The root is ب-د-ل. But again, both are used in both colloquial Hindi and of course Urdu).
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2010
  11. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Please post some objections on why you disagree, if you want to be taken seriously.
    In stead of posting off the wall examples as "Railway station" and an empty, meaningless snort as "according to the popular belief on this site", it would be more meaningful to actually contribute to the debate.

    Frank
     
  12. Not.A.Linguist Junior Member

    New York
    Hindi
    Frank, you didn't read the next lines in my post before making that post. In the next lines I provided the actual Hindi words for words Urdu words that are claimed to be Hindi. What will be a better contribution than to actually show the equivalent Hindi word?

    How is "Railway Station" off the wall? The previous post claimed if a word is used by Hindi speaker it becomes a Hindi word. Do you agree to that? "Railway Station" is just about the most common example of a non-hindi word used by Hindi speakers, much the same way many Urdu words are. How is my example off the wall?

    panjabigator, if Hindi does not have an equivalent word for a Persian/Urdu and other language, and had "adopted" a word from a foreign language as it is, then your example may be valid. But even in that case in academic circles that word will not find approval. It will not find a place in a standard dictionary of the language. Farmaana, by your own admission has a foreign origin and etymology, hence cannot be qualified as a Hindi word. Much the same way "Railway Station" is.

    The other example that you have taken of the word "mint" (you are actually digressing from the topic but let me add a quick reply), will not count as a Hindi Word. It can at best be counted as a slang. Though I would not even count it as slang, but purely a matter of laziness of tongue or lack of education and awareness of the correct word.

    Faylasoof, that is a better representation of the fact.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2010
  13. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I believe that my example of "minute/mint" is just as relevant or irrelevant as your "railroad" example. It is one thing to discuss a word's etymology or to even suggest that in your idiolect of Hindi, <farmānā> has no place. Indeed, that is a perfectly justifiable response: "people may say <farmānā>, but we don't." That gives the asker an idea of usage with verifiable data. Or perhaps your could suggest that written Hindi prefers "X" over "Y."

    But you have assigned yourself the role of linguistic police and are labeling <farmānā> as not Hindi. Where does your definition of linguistic purity begin and end? The transition word <ki> (कि) is of Persian origin. I can hardly imagine this as being not-Hindi. What happens to the word <salwār kamīz>? Not Hindi? When do "loan words" stop being loan words and become recognized as "self" or apart of said language?

    Hindi tends towards Sanskrit to coin new words but that doesn't mean that only tatsam and tadbhav words are alotted room. It seems to me that this is exactly what you are suggesting.

    I also take umbrage with your defintion of slang. Your linguistic purism may apply for you but I don't think it is fair to derride another's speech as lazy because it is different.
     
  14. Not.A.Linguist Junior Member

    New York
    Hindi
    panjabigator, seems you cannot stick to the topic. This topic is about the word फरमाना. And you are talking about everything else because you have lost the ground on the word itself. I will not indulge in counter attacking you on policing and stuff. But that doesn't mean I will not intervene if someone passes off an Urdu word as Hindi. I will continue to show the correct words and correct usage of Hindi on this site regardless of what you think.
     
  15. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Dear all,

    This forum has always been a friendly place. Let's not ruin the atmosphere, please.
    This thread is now closed awaiting moderator action, and to give everyone some time to think how to discuss language and present one's own opinions in a calmer tone.
    Thanks :)
     
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