Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Wolverine9, Apr 5, 2013.
What's incorrect in this sentence?
baazaar: an 'a' is missing. Simple typo.
aisii CHoTii moTii galatiyaaN sanjokar rakhiye taaki aage chalkar ye hathiyaar ban sakeNgii...
Wolverine, have you come across a verbal form "jaa raheN haiN"? bazaar/baazaar is by no means an issue and I'd say it is even acceptable if it is not a typo!
OK, so it should be jaa rahe haiN. I didn't even notice it was written raheN!
Nothing at all is incorrect in the sentence, Wolverine, except that it goes against the prescriptive, dictatorial mentalities of some here. While grammar books will tell you "rahe haiN", in spoken Hindi "raheN haiN" is very common. It is understood that spoken (actual) language doesn't count often on this forum.
@TS: While I agree that we are by now very familiar with the hathiyaars that are used by a couple of Urdu speakers here, do note that "bazaar" is fine and there's no typo in it: it's certainly far more common than "baazaar" in Hindi.
I suppose the question one needs to ask is this. As this forum exists to aid learners, as a starting point would you teach them "chaar vyakti baazaar jaa rahe haiN" or "chaar vyakti bazaar jaa raheN haiN"?. If the learner has common street slang in mind, then one can move onto distinguish any possible differences between the two. The starting point, as per forum rules, must be the standard written language and "raheN haiN" is not standard Hindi. At least I have n't seen it depicted as such.
Is this really to do with the spoken language? To me it is more like everyman for himself or in TS's words "the wild west of language"!
I see, one should write as one speaks? is that so? Or add a nasal on occasions if one is in the mood? Or say one thing but write something else? It's all very clear!
^ This forum's sole purpose is not to aid learners; if you are unclear about this, you may go to the WR mission statement page. If that had been the case, you should have reported a thousand other posts, like this, this, or this. The concerned threads are not started by learners nor meant for them specifically, though learners can of course benefit from them just as much as from this thread itself: they would at least know that both "bazaar" and "baazaar" are find and sticking to the latter would only make them sound bookish, and redundant.
You mention ''Urdu speakers'' but draw wrong conclusions, I've clearly stated bazaar/baazaar is by no means an issue and I'd say it is even acceptable if it is not a typo!
^ You probably missed the insinuations of QP, an Urdu speaker (or was it a case of "chor kii daaRhii meN tinkaa"?). Also, there is the matter of "rahe haiN"/"raheN haiN" ... and numerous other threads where all forum members know the new hathiyaar of a couple of Urdu-speaking members here.
If “aaNkalan” with its nasal “N” is not due to colloquial pronunciation, I wonder what function it has been assigned to this time. Has it been added just for the fun of it or for some other reason?
“chor kii daaRhii meN tinkaa”?
tab chor machaa’e shor
jab khul jaa’e us kaa pol
A referral to #Post 23 of the thread below could be beneficial.
It matters not whether the learner is a novice in a particular language, someone fairly proficient in it, a fluent speaker or a native speaker. At one stage or another we can all benefit from specialist knowledge and experience of others. As this learning environment caters for people’s needs across a wide range, it is essential to stick to the accepted written forms and this is the focus of our debate here.
“Use accepted written forms.
This is a dictionary forum, where students come to learn: correct capitalization, grammar, spelling and punctuation are mandatory.”
Although “bazaar” is not the written form, it is something that I mentioned in passing (# Post 6) after it had been brought under spotlight by TS (in #Post 2). This is not the real focus. The real focus is on whether “jaa raheN haiN” and the likes of “aaNkalan” are accepted written forms. And they are not.
^ Agreed with this stance. I'd take it for granted it was a typo. For kinds of spoken language please consult the thread ''bazriya'' from this post onwards, although it is loosely connected. I and Faylasoof SaaHib have said something about it there about this kind of speech.
GB, since the post no. 2 I've been saying it was not an issue and even said it is acceptable, but since it has become an issue, thanks to TS and your pertinence, let me share the hits of Google at present.
I have included the peculiarity of Hindi writing of not putting the dot under ''ja''.
baajaar -6 700 000 + baazaar- 1 370 000 = 8 070 000
bazaar -37 900 + bajaar -1 300 000 = 1 337 900
I have changed my mind on having seen these written results. bazaar/bajaar spelling or pronunciation are just marginal.
Unless it's a typo, I think that it's important to emphasize correct spelling and grammar even if colloquial speech sometimes differs. For example, in English, many people say something like "Me and her are going to the park" instead of "She and I are going to the park." Just because the first quote is often used in speech doesn't make it correct English. Similarly, many people incorrectly write "I want to eat in a restaurant rather then cook at home". It would be a sign of poor English if written that way.
^ The first construction, "Me and her ...", is however something interesting for the linguist, Wolverine: deviations from the standards, especially when common, cannot be dismissed as un-standard and hence not to be discussed. As for your second example, I don't think we are discussing things like that: that's just spelling mistakes owing to lack of attention/poor education.
What is amusing though is that some people here have pointed out that Hindi doesn't have a standard: and they whine about non-standard Hindi. What is also interesting is that even when Urdu is taken into account, they completely ignore Urdu that differs from what they prescribe: constructions like "kyaa khoob lag raiii baap" or "kidhar (ko) jaa raii tu?" as in Deccani Urdu. The world would be a monotonous place, not far from that evoked in several dystopian novels, if we were all to speak and write, even on these forums, in the languages prescribed by M/s. QP and marrish.
^ "All the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little hand..." (Macbeth-Shakespeare)
All the red herrings will not make "jaa raheN haiN" any more acceptable! (Indo-Iranian Languages-Qureshpor)
Neither shall all the quotations from Shakespeare make anyone forget the new hathiyaar of two Urdu speakers here: try to discredit the witness when the witness goes against you and starts saying truth.
Meanwhile, it's not acceptable to you, but ... does anyone care about what do you accept or not? Particularly that the writer of "jaa raheN haiN" wasn't even concerned about acceptance by anybody: he was just reproducing what is common speech. You can be the judge in your imaginary world thinking yourself Shakespeare and handing out imaginary sentences: unfortunately for you, dear QP, and fortunately for all others, the world doesn't much concern itself with you or your declarations.
You forgot to mention the very mission statement of WR: "WordReference.com provides Forums for exchanges about translation, word usage, terminology equivalency and other linguistic topics."
Now, many linguistic topics cannot be discussed at all, unless one discusses the contemporary or actual language as it is (rather than in grammar tomes): and that's not something that demands your agreement.
There is nothing wrong with it as far as spoken Hindi goes. When I speak fast, I'd just normally sound like
chaar vyakti baazaar/bazaar jaa ra(h)aiN or if a little slower, jaa reyN haiN, or even slower jaa raheN haiN.
I do nasalize raheN when speaking slowly; the formal written form is less important to me these days as I no longer write in Hindi.
Separate names with a comma.