Hindi: pronunciation of nasal N 'ओं, एं'

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by marrish, Mar 18, 2012.

  1. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Dear forum members,

    I would like to share my doubt and ask you all for opinion, based on what you have heard.

    I am not really sure but as far as I can recall, I heard a couple of times the final nasal sound in plural oblique words being dropped. It would be a very interesting phenomenon, maybe a local one, I really don't know. I think the nasal sound in feminine plural and in the postposition meN was also the subject of this alternative pronunciation.

    Eg. दोनों donoN -> दोनो dono,
    किताबों में kitaaboN meN -> किताबो मे kitaabo me
    किताबें kitaabeN -> किताबे kitaabe
    लड़कों के साथ laRkoN ke saath -> लड़को के साथ laRko ke saath

     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2012
  2. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I have been told by reliable sources that both "donoN" and "dono" are correct. I believe I have seen "dono" in writing in Urdu but I won't be able to tell you where, in case you begin another one of your interrogations!:)
     
  3. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you for your reply. Yes, I do not have to start interrogating you because I know the answer: kahiiN, and this with a distinctly articulated nasal N! :)
     
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    May be this too is like saikRaa/saiNkRaa, all depending on how your nose is feeling at a particular moment in time!

    H دونو दोनोdono = H دونون दोनों donoṅ [obl. pl. of do; and=Prk. दोण्हं or दोण्हहुं (gen. plur.)], adj. The two, both, both of them:—donoṅ t̤araf, adv. On both sides:—donoṅ-ke donoṅ, adj.=donoṅ:—donoṅ waqt milte, adv. At the mingline of day and night, at dusk:—donoṅ waqt milnā, Day and night to mingle, day to shade into night, to become dusk:—donoṅ hāth tālī bajānā, lit. 'To clap with both bands'; to reciprocate, to meet half way; to give as good as one gets.
     
  5. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you again. It is very informative. In the meantime I added a couple of other examples.
     
  6. souminwé Senior Member

    Vancouver, Canada
    North American English, Hindi
    The word dono is definitely something I often say without any nasal, and same with meN (for some reason, I find saying meN difficult, same goes for maiN). However, not nasalising the plural oblique or the plural feminine would sound markedly incorrect - for me they have a heavy nasal sound.
     
  7. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Indeed, dono and me was the incentive to start this thread!
    In case of pronunciation problems, please know that you are not alone! I mostly don't pronounce the N in maiN ne.

    Your opinion on the plural oblique (actually donoN is also one of them) and plural feminines is much appreciated - these I heard scarcely, for most part not in plural feminines, but in -oN.


    Maybe I'm wrong.
     
  8. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It seems Hindi is not so popular on this Forum in stark contrast to Urdu.
     
  9. BDC New Member

    English
    I have been listening and have not heard the nasal sound. And I have been trying! I just thought that no one actually used them. Marrish, are you saying that you have dropped trying to use it altogether?

    I have been thinking that it was irrelevant.

    I am talkng about Hindi here.
     
  10. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Not sure of this example pertinent here or not (as here the nasal is on a verb not noun)


    ab ke ham bicchRe to shayad kabhii xwaboN meN mileN
    jis taraH suukhe hue phuul kitaboN meN mileN


    Dropping the last nasal completely changes the meaning. Also without the nasal, xwaboN and kitaboN sounds incomplete.
     
  11. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you for your feedback. Seemingly the nasals are indeed not always properly articulated. I do use them (the nasal sound) very much, sometimes more than enough!
     
  12. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It is surely correct what you said above but I haven't ask for verbs.
    xwaabo, kitaabo sounds incomplete, indeed, I feel like completing it like xwaabo xarosh, kitaabo qalam.
     
  13. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    You may have come across some people who actually ADD the nasal when it is n't there!

    logoN! xudaa kaa xauf karo!

    ai bahaaroN! meraa jiivan bhii saNvaaro.
     
  14. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    You are very right! They do it indeed! I would say:

    logo!!! xudaa kaa xauf karo aur aise nah bolo!!!
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In response to the following from another thread "To agree", I wrote..

    Do some native speakers of Hindi miss out the nasal in their speech for "maiN","maiN ne", "tumheN" etc or are these all just typos?
    I don't personally think these are typos. In this forum other "native" Hindi speakers have also displayed this phenomenon. I too am curious for the reason behind this.
     
  16. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Speaking for me personally, I sometimes add nasals where there aren't any! As for JaiHind's post, I believe it was mere carelessness, since I can't imagine a "tumheN" without the nasal.
     
  17. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Take a look at "Raj Thackeray - in HINDI interview Exclusively with Mandar Phanse - PART 1". At second 00:50 he pronounces maiN 3 times. I hear the nasal. But then at 00:58 he says "vahii saarii chiize", dropping the nasal. Can we view this as a mistake? Even at 00:53, to me it sounds like he says "bate bol rahaa hooN"
     
  18. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    I don't think he is a native Hindi speaker anyway - in fact he even considers Hindi speakers as enemies - so it seems irrelevant to the thread here.
     
  19. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    hahaha. ok. technically, point taken, but if he hated Hindi so much he wouldn't be speaking it. Take politicians words with a grain of salt. They often do things for power, and no other reason.
    Politicians also tend to like agitation to drive away opposition. They often say things that are contrary for the sake of inciting a response.
     
  20. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Of course, his political stance might be only for political gain's sake, but he is a Marathi native speaker, which remains a fact regardless of the color of his politics.
     
  21. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    So, when native speakers make errors, it is due to their "carelessness". When non-natives do the same, it is due to their "non-nativeness". Could he also not have been "careless"? Even if Marathi speakers have a tendency (I don't know, I am guessing) of missing out nasals, surely there must be some Marathis who do pronounce Hindi perfectly correctly, almost as well as the "natives".
     
  22. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Of course there are Marathis who speak very fine Hindi! My only point was that it's not a good example to take, since the speaker is Marathi, not Hindi. He may have done it out of carelessness or not, that wasn't the point. You persist in seeing red everywhere, QP, and your confrontationist attitude isn't very healthy for the forum discussions.
     
  23. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I disagree of course about "seeing red". Regarding your second part, if there was a truer case of the "Pot calling the kettle black", then you surely are a prime example! A number of idioms/proverbs come to mind. Whichever path you now decide to take, I shall be there to greet you.

    jaisaa karo ge, vaisaa bharo ge

    iiNT kaa javaab patthar

    shiishe ke gharoN meN rahne vaale duusroN par patthar nahiiN phenKte.

    ..........................................................

    miiThe bol meN jaaduu hai

    jis kisii ne miiThii baat kii, us ne kaRvii nah sunii

    kar bhalaa ho gaa bhalaa
     
  24. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you for the sayings, Qureshpor SaaHib!

    Until now, there have been opinions that the nasals are dropped in certain words by the ''native speakers'' and dropping them in writing by the ''native speakers'' is due to carelessness whereas not articulating them in speech can be explained through not speaking Hindi as the first language.

    We haven't reached far yet, I'm afraid. We still don't know how the nasals are treated in spoken language by the ''natives'' and whether this phenomenon occurs at all in speech. Or is it limited to dropping dots in writing?
     
  25. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    I am afraid that you are putting a spin on what's said so far. I didn't find any such generalization in the whole discussion that says that native speakers drop nasals for carelessness or that not articulating them can be explained through speaking Hindi as the first language. From where did you arrive at those?
     
  26. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It is not a question of generalizing but the one of putting some opinions which we have up to now, together.
    As a matter of fact I don't understand how come you draw the conclusion that not articulating nasals can be explained through speaking Hindi as the first language.

    Having said that, I can't see that this post of yours adds anything to the discussion.
     
  27. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    hai mard-i-suxan-saaz bhii dunyaa meN 3ajab chiiz
    paa'o ge kisii fan meN kahiiN band nah us ko

    dono meN se ko'ii naho to aap haiN sab kuchh
    par hech haiN jis vaqt kih maujuud hoN dono

    Hali
     
  28. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    This is not directly connected with your question but if you look in Farhang-i-Asafiyyah under "maa, you will find a number of entries where the nasal has been dropped from the word "maaN". The same applies for the nasal in "maamuuN" where both "maamuu" and "maamuuN" are given side by side.
     

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