Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by lafz_puchnevala, Feb 11, 2012.
As usual, the meaning and a simple sample usage will be appreciated.
As far as I'm concerned there is no word like fituur in Urdu. I don't think it is there in Hindi.
Your teacher might have misspelled the Urdu word futuur فتور. The meaning is mainly 'infirmity, disorder'. My Hindi dictionary suggests it is used in Hindi as well and for your convenience I'm giving its meanings in Hindi:
फ़ुतूर: (अरबी) फ़साद; शरारत; घटना; कमज़ोरी; ख़राबी
marrish SaaHib has already provided an explanation. Here is DaaGh Dihlavii, using your word of choice.
payaambar se vuh shab-i-va3dah bigaR baiThe
bane banaa'e hu'e kaam meN futuur aayaa
She got annoyed with the messenger on the agreed night
All the plans and arrangements were thrown into disarray!
Have checked that I haven't entered the word incorrectly. Let us wait for more responses before jumping into conclusions...
I would agree with the comments above made by marrish and Qureshpor! Marrish has already provided the Hindi dictionary entries, so I'll provide the Urdu as well...hope no one is going to find it annoying (When learning a new language or trying to improve/expand vocabulary, a dictionary seems to be one of the best tools, which is why I often directly quote from it....and one could perhaps even learn some more new words in the process!)
Notice Platts gives the vulg. pronunciation as fitur; This can be heard used by Hindi speakers (some, not all) in addition to fatur (mispronunciation often used by some Hindi, Punjabi, and even native Urdu speakers). It could be that maybe you had the wrong transliteration in Hindi....
sustii, a'azaa ki sustii, zo'f, kharabi, khalal
"Naheen! Naheen! Naheen! Yeh sirf tumhare dimaagh ka futur hai aur kuch bhi naheen! Tumne aisa soch bhi kaise liya?"-sad background music starts playing...
Let's wait for more learned members' replies...
Found these sentences in the web with the word...
'Duniya main sachcha pyaar naam ki koi cheez nahin hai. Ye sab kuch insaan k dil aur dimaag ka fituur hai. Mohabbat bekaar aur bedaam ki cheez hai. Iska is duniya main koi mol nahin.'
This is from an old Hindi song, 'kahe paise pe itna'
'.......paidaa fituur kare hai
yahii paisaa to ...'
Might be that this word is not used often...
Edit: Another link with a similar question...fitoor/fatoor/futoor
Hello, as I suggested before: let's wait for more learned members...but(don't mean to sound rude or present stereotypes...)
If you search for "fituur/fitoor" on Google, you will find mostly Hindi sites that are using the word incorrectly (as is done with many other Urdu words, such as dimaag, which is actually dimaagh; naghma, not nagma; ghilaaf, not gilaaf; etc.)
In the song example you provide (haven't heard it yet), but it sounds like a rustic/village/gaon type Hindi song from the wording used (kahe, etc.), in which words are often mispronounced: such as jamana for zamanah, julam for zulm, jindagi for zindagi, etc. to give the gaon type feel...
In general, you can even hear such words being mispronounced in Hindi media as well....
Here is a link in which a person is asking about the same word you are asking about: fitoor/fatoor used in the song "beRi jalaile" from Omkara; In the last post, one person provides the same link from Platts that I provided above...
You'll notice that Sukhvinder Singh pronounces it as fatoor (this could be due to the fact that he is Punjabi and generally in India, Punjabi speakers tend to be more in touch with Urdu than Hindi speakers....not necessarily though)
Even S.Singh's pronunciation is wrong: it isn't fatoor but futoor...
If you watch the song on YouTube, you will find that there is a big debate going on about whether the song is in Urdu or Hindi...of course this particular song contains elements of both, but mostly Bollywood songs have been employing and even are still employing Urdu words heavily. (It is another matter that they are often labeled as "Hindi" words for reasons which we shall not discuss here) The difference between the present and the past is that the new generation often mispronounces words, while the older generation like Lata Mangeshkar, Asha Bhosle, Kishore Kumar, and many others had learned proper pronunciation of Urdu, Hindi, (and any other language's) words. Lata M. and Asha B. have pointed this out in many of their interviews (they hired a Molvi to learn the proper pronunciation of Urdu letters/words-which is why you'll rarely find mistakes in their songs/ghazals)...for example, Ik pyaar ka naghma hai
"Fituur" exists very much in Hindi (conversely, futuur does not), and it has nothing to do with the meanings of फ़साद; शरारत; घटना; कमज़ोरी; ख़राबी.
"Fituur" means craze; addiction; impulse. Some examples:
"Us ko aajkal Internet kaa fituur lag gayaa hai" (He's got addicted to Internet these days)
"Us par patang udaane kaa fituur savaar ho gayaa hai" (He's got a craze for kite-flying) - an equivalent expression would be "bhoot savaar ho gayaa hai"
In your example sentence "Duniya main sachcha pyaar naam ki koi cheez nahin hai. Ye sab kuch insaan k dil aur dimaag ka fituur hai. Mohabbat bekaar aur bedaam ki cheez hai. Iska is duniya main koi mol nahin", fituur means a figment of imagination that makes us crazy - the concept of love - which rationally is nothing, according to the sentence.
Unfortunate for the dictionaries if they don't list it out, since it is a word highly used by all Hindi speakers: in almost every Hindi-speaking home, "fituur" is used.
Agree, but I believe this is a wrong pronunciation, as stated above... (from the Urdu perspective at least; On the other hand, one could of course argue and say that it doesn't matter what dictionaries say, language is what is spoken, and it evolves, etc.)
Also, in the examples above, (not sure) but it seems like wrong usage. The correct sentence would be: us per patang uRaane kaa junoon sawaar ho gaya hai;
Junoon: craze, impulse, dewaanapan, dewaanigi, etc.
It probably could be called wrong pronunciation if the word had the same meanings as the Urdu one; however, "fituur" means "junoon" in Hindi! So, it's like a completely new word with its own pronunciation (maybe derived from "futuur", but we are not discussing etymology).
Every Hindi speaker pronounces it as "fituur" - and it's too common a word. So it's quite standard pronunciation in Hindi.
Quite interesting, was thinking that 'fituur' probably came from Perso Arabic roots because of the 'fa' sound but it looks like our Urdu speaking friends have also not heard of it. Never came across 'fituur' in a written Hindi form though before this. Usually 'pagal' and sometimes 'junoon' substitute that word.
Btw, can I say, 'mujhe X par junoon lag gayaa hai'? Does it sound correct?
mujhe (or "mujh par") X kaa junoon lag gayaa hai
As stated previously, it seems to be a wrong pronunciation and (somewhat wrong) usage of the original Urdu word...as demonstrated by the multiple links also (unless ofcourse Hindi has borrowed fitoor from some other language or such a word exits in Urdu that we all are not aware of )
Or simply, mujhe x ka junoon hai/ho gaya hai...not sure if junoon lagna is correct...
Before this thread goes off into orbit, may I suggest the following.
The word is indeed "futuur" (of Arabic origins) and its meaning is diverse as is recorded by Platts. When(ever) Platts mention a word being "vulgar" pronunciation, I do not believe it means the way we understand the word now. All it means is that that is the "common" or "colloquial" pronunciation. Now if this is the general pronunciation amongst Hindi speakers, then that is fine. Amongst Urdu speakers, I have not heard "fituur" although I am not saying no Urdu speaker uses this. There are a number of words, for example, where one section of the Urdu speaking population use an "i" vowel whilst another uses the "a" vowel. Urdu speakers pronounce this word as "futuur" and "fatuur".
So, in conclusion, let us accept all the variations that are there amongst Urdu and Hindi speakers (and other language speakers using this word). lafz_puchnevala then can make up his own mind how Urdu and Hindi speakers use it.
Agree, but could you shed some light on the correct usage of the word...it is used in the sense the Hindi speakers have used it above, but is it correct to use it as such...?
But it looks like 'fituur' and 'futuur' are completely different in their meanings
Just another observation (if the interpretation is correct), it seems that Gulzaar SaaHib has used futoor in "BiRi jalaile" similarly to the Urdu meanings listed above....that is why I ask for clarification from QP SaaHib...
Alfaaz SaaHib, I believe the meaning in Hindi for "fituur" greatbear is alluding to is linked to Platts "futuur-i-3aql futūr-ě-ʻaql, s.m. Unsoundness of intellect or mind:".
So, I don't believe there is a divergence in understanding of the word in question.
The thread asks about both languages, in reality there is no word like this in Urdu.
In accordance with the contributions in this thread and after a look into my Hindi dictionary, I've amended my thinking. There is such a word in Hindi, but it is presented in the dictionary as an alternative spelling, giving reference to the main entry, futuur. fatuur figures as another variant. I'm sure phituur and phatuur is also Hindi.
It is up to you to decide which standard you prefer. As we can see, there is a wide array of choice for a single word! I had only suggested that your source might have misspelled it.
It is a very good explanation, illustrating the phonological shifts in Urdu words when used in Hindi, especially in a specific variety of it and in dialects. Very true about the media!
Yes, you are right. It's so nice to learn something new, still I must strongly disagree with the other part of your statement. Not only a Hindi dictionary treats it as a main entry, but also I read it many a time in Hindi books. This statement tantamounts to arguing that there is no word ''colour'' in English but ''color'' is there.
I don't know if it is known to everyone (I'm aware you know) so let me state the obvious that languages go on evolving and it means not only that words end up being pronounced differently but also their scope of meaning might undergo a shift. The regional usage is a major factor as well. It is a dictionary which lists the above meanings. Of course I don't expect you to use this or other word in all the meanings but I experience your suggestion as if these meanings were non-existent or wrong as the reflection of your personal colloquial usage. That is why I agree - this is the meaning assigned colloquially to the colloquial form of this noun. Moreover, I'm familiar with it.
Usage alterations happen with an incomparably swifter pace than dictionaries go down the printing press, sometimes a fashion to understand a word or expression in a special way lasts no more than a couple of months - all depending on the group of speakers and media nowadays. It is no longer books and newspapers that shape our language tastes.
Good news that all Hindi speakers in almost every Hindi-speaking home use an Arabic noun so eagerly. It is in these days, it appears! Thanks for the information, as I've not been to Hindi-speaking homes these days. I dare suggesting that in some of them the correct noun - futuur - is uttered here and there.
I'm afraid it is not a new word and even not a new meaning - just a narrowed colloquial usage.
Yes, fatuur is being heard in Urdu besides futuur. It is an example of, courtesy of Faylasoof SaaHib, lacking zer-zabar tamiiz. These differences in Hindi usage are very interesting. Describing the language is more enjoyable than prescribing it since the latter can be a source of many frustrations!
I agree to the fullest with this analysis.
I have listened to this song, from the film "laa-vaaris"* (1981), the lyric writer being Anand Bakhshi who we know wrote his lyrics in Urdu, as demonstrated in a Youtube video of his, showing him writing in Urdu. But returning to the argument in question, my ears are hearing "futuur" from Kishore Kumar's voice. And if I may pay tribute to him here (and he is NOT one of my favourite singers) by saying that he not only has pronounced every f, z and Gh correctly as expected of people of his era, he pronounces the q perfectly well in this song too.
* You may wish to ask about the word "laa-vaaris" if it is not on your teacher's list already.
"kaahe paise pih itnaa Ghuruur kare hai
yahii paisah to apnoN se duur kare hai"
with the rhyme scheme being Ghuruur/duur/zaruur/futuur
The poet has used "kare hai" instead of "kartaa hai" to impart an older flavour to the language. Please see the thread that I have started "Urdu-Hindi: The aorist tense". So, this song is not rustic type Hindi song but as Urdu as it can get, written by an Urdu poet.
Maybe fituur is some word which some of us haven't yet heard, and we're just confusing it with futuur because of the same ordered set of consonants.
lafz_puchne vaale SaaHib, every word you have asked so far has been an Urdu word of Persian or Arabic origins. You will have noticed that contributions from Hindi speakers in your threads have been in only a few of them . That could be telling you something.
I agree! Sure they do!
Correct! This is neither a new word nor a new meaning! Please see below!
Thank you marrish SaaHib for reminding everyone of this, my humble contribution thus far to this discussion, indirect though it may be:
You correctly pointed out above that fituur per se doesn't exist in Urdu but there are Urduphones, as we all know, who do pronounce futuur as fatuur and, btw, also fituur(!)… and if one goes by recognized Hindi lexicons (like McGregor's Hindi Dictionary, for example) then it is fatuur in Hindi. One also finds fatuur on the net as alternative to fituur. BTW, a variation of this is found as far east as eastern Awadh and Bihar where it is pronounced as phatuur:
iike damaag maa phatuur ho gawaa hoe to mean what we would say in Urdu and Colloquial Hindi: iske dimaagh meN futuur ho gayaa hai = his / her mind has become unsound!
dimaagh meN futuur honaa = to have unsoundness of mind
futuur فتور फ़ुतूर, as we all recognise comes from the Arabic verb فتر fatara = lassitude, languor, slackness, lack of rigour etc. When the word came into Urdu it acquired a slightly different shade of everyday meaning, viz. defect, unsoundness etc. We also use it to mean discord, row etc. just as Platts mentions:
A فتور futūr, vulg. fitūr (inf. n. of فتر 'to abate'; 'to become languid,' &c.), s.m. Languor, weakness, infirmity; defect, imperfection, unsoundness; irregularity;—coolness; discord, quarrelling, quarrel, row, riot:—futūr bar-pā karnā, or futūr ḍālnā, or futūr karnā (-meṅ), To create a disturbance, cause a quarrel, to sow discord (between):—futūr-ě-ʻaql, s.m. Unsoundness of intellect or mind:—futūr-ě-haẓm, s.m. Badness of digestion; indigestion, dyspepsia.
futuur uThaanaa / khaRaa karnaa = to sow discord
futuur chaRhnaa = to get / have an obsession / irrational, desire
All of the above are used in both Urdu and consequently everyday Hindi.
So you have found from where the Hindi "fituur" derives: great work. However, since "fituur" does not mean "unsoundness of mind" in Hindi but rather a temporary craze for something, for example if I have got a strong urge to fly kites this evening (which is hardly being unsound in mind, is it?), Hindi has a different meaning for the word. Thus it is also not a "narrowed colloquial usage" (as declared by marrish a bit too hastily).
It's also interesting to note that some of the members here seem very excited if an Arabic-origin word is used by Hindi speakers: what's the big deal in that? (To quote marrish here: "Good news that all Hindi speakers in almost every Hindi-speaking home use an Arabic noun so eagerly.") Hindi has many Arabic-Persian words, just as Urdu has many Prakrit-Sanskrit words. What's the new thing there to be excited? I fail to understand.
It is also interesting to note that while certain members do accuse people of making sweeping statements here, they themselves make plenty of them, unable to accept that a word as common as "fituur" exists carrying the meaning of craze, strong urge, a meaning that does not seem to exist for the Urdu counterpart. Or, maybe, finally they will say that it is just my personal opinion that "fituur" has this meaning, is it? I do think so.
Also, to address another point mentioned by QP somewhere, there are few posts by Hindi speakers on threads started by lafz_puchnevala simply because there are few Hindi speakers on the forum!
Lafz_puchnevala informed when he joined and started asking questions that his teacher had given him a list of Urdu words (written in the Hindi script) and he is wanting information about those as he is not able to contact that teacher/professor now...(providing a khulaasah, not exact quotes)
So taking that into consideration, I think members were just trying to provide the authentic/original meaning of the words, and there is no doubt that futoor might be used in some (or many) Hindi and Urdu circles with a slightly different or perhaps even distorted meaning
Edit: yes as Faylasoof has mentioned above and QP below that " futuur chaRhnaa = to get / have an obsession / irrational, desire"
OK, if my understanding of your description is not mapping exactly (surprise surprise), then let us rejoice in our difference. If the meaning of "fituur" in Hindi is a "craze", then that's fine. Words take on new meanings and this has obviously happened in the case of this word in "Hindi". Faylasoof SaaHib mentioned " futuur chaRhnaa = to get / have an obsession / irrational, desire", is this closer to Hindi usage? It won't definitely be the end of the world, I assure you, if it does n't!
It would be nice to see an example or two from Hindi literature. But, alas, you say you are not really into it.
Let me answer your post since I was the first one to reply to the thread and I figure in your remarks.
It is undoubtedly good to provide a reference to the main form of the word in question rather than giving a simple meaning since we proceed on a WRF. Thank you for your appreciation, but frankly speaking I had no need of finding anything for I plainly know what kind of noun it is (in Urdu, in Hindi and in Arabic). I do recognize the meaning you were kind to provide and I think it is a valuable addition to what others and myself had presented. Still it doesn't mean that I have to follow you in your position where you state that it does not mean 'unsoundness of mind' in Hindi, on the contrary, I am going to uphold the meanings given by my Hindi dicitonary, which states several aspects assinged to this word, amongst other ख़राबी.
So in order to ensure that we all can learn something new, let us take a look at some Hindi (literary) references below:
ऐसा नहीं कि उसका इस तरह से सोचना मात्र दिगागी फितूर है
aisaa nahiiN ki uskaa is tarah se sochnaa maatr dimaagii phituur hai
क्रांति इस शहर में,किसी धोती वाले के
सिरफिरे बेटे के दिमाग का फतूर है
जिसपे किसी टोपी वाले का बेटा पेशाब करता
kraaNti is shahr meN, kisii dhotii vaale ke
sirphire beTe ke dimaag kaa phatuur hai
jispe kisii Topii vaale kaa beTaa peshaab kartaa
I appreciate your carefullness at choosing your words when expressing your view on my saying ''narrowed colloquial usage'' and can stress that I said it with the same degree of care, not to mean anything wrong but to indicate that the usage you give is narrowed in comparison to several other semantic aspects of the word in Hindi and secondly, to acknowledge its wide, no more no less than a colloquial usage. A phrase ''mujhe Mumbai jaane kaa phituur chaRh gayaa'' can not be denied its colloquiality.
If I'm allowed to speak for my part, since I'm being directly referred to, the reason of my joy was to note that this very word is used by every Dick and Tom in the day-to-day language, and I personally didn't expect it to gain such widespread acceptance. This popularity is not enjoyed by many other words which my limited knowledge would suggest are part of Hindi and appear to be unknown to some members of this respected forum. Please note that the quotation from my post is a paraphrase of your input.
I didn't mean anything wrong. I agree to the fullest with you regarding the fact of mixed vocabulary of both languages.
I'm far from judging whether accusations or indications of making sweeping statements are made, I prefer focussing on the language part.
It is your personal opinion which I share to the extent of Hindi because it reflects the common usage, and I can only acknowledge the said meaning. What I'm saying is in turn my personal opinion. There is no need to mention making sweeping statements where they are not made. But once you mentioned them, let me mention that I think you failed to perceive a subtle irony in this respect where I had put some words in bold in the previous quotation.
The fact that Hindi speakers are so scarcely represented here is highly regrettable! I agree!
To add some semblance of stability to this argument I will relate that Oxford Hindi-English states
fituur == fatuur (Arabic fatur)
1. defect, unsoundness 2. discord 3. argument, row
fatuur chadhna - a craze to come (par, on)
In this last sense, it is the same as januun as QP-sahib has already stated.
This word is NOT Urdu according to this dictionary since usually such words are marked with a (U) symbol.
May I suggest an example usage: Yah urdu-hindi kii bahas south asia ke dimaag meiN fatuur saabit ho rahii hai! -
I don't think anyone can/is deny(ing) the Arabic root; that is why people are even correcting the pronunciation; if this approach is taken, then many other words wouldn't be Urdu or Hindi...since they are originally Arabic/Persian words....
Let me point in the direction of a news headline where GB-ji's meaning is implied:
मोहित ने कहा कि उन्हें शुरू से ही संगीत का फ़ितूर रहा है, इसीलिए उन्होंने अपनी इस एलबम का नाम 'फ़ितूर' रखा
mohit ne kahaa kih unheN shuruu se hii sangiit kaa fituur rahaa hai, isiilie unhoNne upnii is elbam kaa naam 'Fituur' rakhaa...
Another Hindi blog where there traditional meaning is implied:
And here is another where the original meaning is implied where discussing the usage of the term "Bollywood":
"मगर हम देख रहे हैं कि किसी अंग्रेज़ी पत्रकार का दिमागी फ़ितूर एक कड़वी सच्चाई बनता जा रहा है."
magar ham dekh rahe haiN kih kisi angresii kaa dimaagee fituur ek kaDvii saccaaii bantaa jaa rahaa hai.
So, I will say that GB has his hand on the pulse of the modern generation where the term fituur has taken on a whole new meaning...
Well, it has broken free from the chains of the chadhnaa verb. One could call this slang if one were a traditionalist or just new usage.
Can't read those...but hasn't it already been established that the word can be used with both meanings? (dimaagh mein futoor hona and dimaagh par futoor chaRnaa)
tonyspeed SaaHib, may I suggest you get hold of a better Hindi-English dictionary or at least a better edition! In Arabic it is futuur, not fatur, as you indicate above your dictionary sates. Nor is it fatuur as some people, both Hindiphones and many non-native Urduphones also pronounce. Besides, both fatuur (more recent relatively speaking) and fituur (so old that even Platts lists it!) are just variations of the original futuur. So much so for the pronunciation.
Now as for the meaning,
futuur chaRhnaa is just one way of saying it. We also say dimaagh meN futuur ho jaanaa = to have / get an obsession / an irrational desire in the brain (literally speaking), i.e. to become obsessive / crazy for (something), and an obsession for something is a craze for something! Incidentally, the idea of obsession / craze etc. is closely related to the idea of unsoundness of mind in a general sense. This usage has been around for long! You can take from me as we use it in our speech have been using it for generations.
You definitely need to buy a better Hindi dictionary also for this reason. All the ones I have never mention (U) as symbol to indicate Urdu origin, since both Hindi and Urdu lexicons always go to the primary source of the words, which in the case of futuur is Arabic.
My McGregor’s Hindi-English dictionary quite plainly states this:
फ़तूर fatuur [A. futuur] m. 1. defect, unsoundness, 2. discord 3. quarrel, row.
But its usage, as we all now know, goes beyond these meanings!
We have been using futuur with all these ideas and more for a long time!
bahut xuub! May I also add this: futuur ko yaa to fatuur yaa fituur banaa ke aur in ke rah rah ke ko’ii anokhe ma3ne nikaalnaa bhii ek qism kaa futuur hai!
I beg to differ! None of these usages are novel! futuur / fatuur / fituur / phatuur (!) etc. all broke the chains of chaRhnaa a long time ago! I've presented my argument above!
Thank you, tonyspeed, for an excellent example. While faylasoof would like to translate fituur as "obsession" here, as looks likely from his reply, I would translate it to "penchant" in English - which is something very different from "obsession" and of course extremely far from any unsoundness of mind. From wherever the Hindi "fituur" may have come, either it has gained a new meaning in Hindi - which is that of (1) penchant (2) obsession, craze - or that meaning also existed in Urdu and the Urduphones were unaware of it (and the dictionaries as well). I leave the Urduphones to decide on that, but in spite of this strange unwillingness on part of the Urduphones to accept a new modern meaning of a word, since the thread originally was for the benefit of lafz_puchnewala, I would reiterate the much expanded use of the word fituur, and also like to point out that in Hindi the word does not mean anything besides the two meanings listed here. In Urdu it might mean discord, etc.
It seems that some of you are, yet again, unable to remain on topic. This thread is closed till the moderators find the time to edit out the off-topic part.
Thank you all for you help keeping the forum organized, respectful and withing the rules.
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