Hindi/Urdu: jo ki, jab ki

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by souminwé, Jul 8, 2011.

  1. souminwé Senior Member

    Vancouver, Canada
    North American English, Hindi
    I don't really know when to use jab ki or jo ki instead of just jo/jab. Here is an example I read on BBC yesterday:

    Adaalat mein peshi ke mauqe par doctor-on ko calne men mushkil pesh aa rahi thi, jab ki vo thake hue
    अदालत में पेशी के मौके पर डॉक्टरों को चलने में मुश्किल पेश आ रही थी, जबकि वे थके हुए.
    عدالت میں پیشی کے موقع پر ڈاکٹروں کو چلنے میں مشکل پیش آ رہی تھی جب کہ وہ تھکے ہوئے

    I'm reading this as "as if they were tired", that doesn't seem connected to jab in anyway.
    I don't have an example on jo ki, but if anyone insight on that it will be greatly appreciated.
    Does jahaan ki exist as well (it sounds like something I've heard before).
     
  2. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The sentence quoted appears incomplete to me.

    jab kih is used in a contransting context to imply where as, as well as a simultaneous event to impart the meaning of the English while.

    Lahore, jo kih ek qadiim taariiKhii shahr hai, us meN nah sirf bahut puraanii 'imaarateN paa'ii jaatii haiN balkih jadiid-tariin 'imaaratoN ke namuune bhii milte haiN.

    Here jo kih means which.

    Karachi, jahaaN (kih) raat ko bhii din jitnii gahmaa-gahmii rahtii hai, raushaniyoN kaa shahr kahaa jaataa hai.

    jahaaN (kih) means where.

     
  3. souminwé Senior Member

    Vancouver, Canada
    North American English, Hindi
    Full sentence:
    Adaalat mein peshi ke mauqe par doctor-on ko calne men mushkil pesh aa rahi thi, jab ki vo thake hue aur cahre ka rang zard lag raha tha

    Does this help? I still don't understand how jab ki is being used here.

    Doesn't jo on its own suffice for "which"?
     
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
     
  5. Illuminatus Senior Member

    Mumbai, India
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    This sentence is both incomplete and wrong.

    Complete sentence:

    Adaalat mein peshi ke mauqe par doctor-on ko calne men mushkil pesh aa rahi thi, jab ki vo thake hue they aur cahre ka rang zard lag raha tha

    However, it's still wrong. jabki is similar to although, so it would introduce contradicting information in the discourse. For instance—

    बच्चे बहुत बार अपने माँ-बाप को भूल जाते हैं जबकि उनके माँ-बाप हमेशा उनका ख़याल रखते हैं. = Although parents always take care of their kids, children often forget their parents.

    In your example, if the doctors were having trouble walking (chalne mein mushkil pesh aa rahi thii), saying that they were tired is not contradictory but supporting information. A translation of the sentence would be:

    The doctors were having trouble walking on the day of their appearance in court, although they were tired and their faces zard (I am not too sure what zard implies here, so I have left it like that).

    kyonki would be more appropriate here, although that is also not a good fit because the fact that they were tired is a symptom of their fatigue, not the cause.

     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Now, it is my turn to be a little surprised that you are not aware of "zard"!:) A man who is a poetry lover would possibly have heard Sahir's immortal words..jinheN naaz hai Hind par vuh kahaaN haiN?

    yih sadiyoN se be-Khvaab, sahmii sii galiyaaN
    yih maslii hu'ii adh-khilii zard* kaliyaaN
    yih biktii hu'ii khokhlii rang-raliyaaN
    jinheN naaz hai Hind par vuh kahaaN haiN?
    kahaaN haiN kahaaN haiN kahaaN haiN?

    *yellow, but "pale" in the context of the original sentence.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  7. Illuminatus Senior Member

    Mumbai, India
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    I'd heard of zard in such contexts as you mentioned, and had taken it to be some attributive modifier whose exact meaning I wasn't aware of, so didn't hazard a guess when translating souminwé's sentence.

    Thanks!
     
  8. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Exactly! Hence "kyonki" also would be wrong here. The best thing, if the sentence is not to be rephrased, would be to insert a semicolon in the place of "jab ki". I would also put "unke" before "chehre" to make it (more) complete: 'woh thake hue the and chehre zard lag rahe the' begets a question in my mind, whose faces?

    By the way, I also did not know the meaning of "zard"; thanks a lot for the explanation and beautiful couplet, QP. I still don't understand a word in that, "raliyaaN"; I have often heard it along with "rang" but does it exist independently? And what does it mean, if so?
     
  9. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    You are welcome, greatbear SaaHib.

    This is what Platts says about "rang-raliyaaN". I can not answer the second part of your question because I don't know. I don't think it exists on its own. My Punjabi psyche tells me that it could be connected to the intransitive verb "ralaNRaa" which means "to meet up/to get mixed". rang ralaNRaa would then make sense. Mind you, this is purely a guess.

    rang-raliyā, s.f. pl. Sports, pastimes; music and dancing; rejoicings, gaieties: merriment, pleasure, mirth, revelry; pleasant society (of a lover):

    Here is a little more on zard, incorporating the word 3ilaaj/'ilaaj/ilaaj. The poet is Khvaajah Miir Dard 1712-1781/1785.

    dekh mujhe tabiib* aaj, puuchhaa jo Haalat-i-mizaaj
    kahne lagaa kih laa-'ilaaj**, bandah huuN maiN KHudaa nahiiN
    chihrah tiraa bhii zard hai, aah*** laboN pih sard**** hai
    yih to miyaaN vuh dard hai jis kii koii davaa nahiiN

    [Dard]

    * tabiib/doctor
    ** laa 'ilaaj/incurable
    *** aah/sigh
    ***sard/cold
     
  10. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    So we are all in agreement that both jo keh / jo ki and jab keh / jab ki are not appropriate here. Also, both the inclusion of the (illuminatus) and unke (greatbear) makes a needed improvement on the original. But I would disagree that QP’s original suggestion of kyoNkeh / chuuNkeh wouldn’t fit. In fact these two were the first that came to my mind when I read the first post:

    3adaalat mein peshi ke mauqe3 par doctoroN / daakTaroN ko chalne meN mushkil pesh aa rahii thii kyoNkeh / chuuNkeh vo thake hue the aur unke cheroN* ka rang zard lag rahaa tha

    [* I changed chehre to chehroN as we are talking about the plural doctoroN / daakTaroN. It is best to keep to the rules of plurality agreement.]

    At the time of the hearing the doctors were experiencing difficulty walking because they were tired and their faces appeared off colour / they appeared off colour!


    We of course don’t need to do a literal translation of the expression rang zard honaa / lagnaa (literally to be / appear of yellow (colour)!) in chehre kaa rang zard honaa / lagnaa.

    chehre kaa rang zard honaa is usually used to indicate sickness / tiredness (fatigue) / fear. Here it is fatigue / tiredness.
     
  11. Illuminatus Senior Member

    Mumbai, India
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    "kyonki" fits the "thake huey the" part but not the "chehre ka rang" part. A pale face is a symptom of fatigue, not the cause of it.

    If the zard part weren't there, I would definitely say that kyonki fits best. Even now, it's OK, just that it doesn't seem so convincing.
     
  12. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I wouldn't disagree with your first sentiment but I would with the second! There is aur (= and ), connecting two separate sentences!

    Sentence 1: 3adaalat mein peshi ke mauqe3 par doctoroN / daakTaroN ko chalne meN mushkil pesh aa rahii thii kyoNkeh / chuuNkeh vo thake hue the

    aur

    Sentence 2: unke cheroN* ka rang zard lag rahaa thaa

    Please consider the alternative:

    unke cheroN* ka rang utraa thaa

    Here is the new version:

    3adaalat mein peshi ke mauqe3 par doctoroN / daakTaroN ko chalne meN mushkil pesh aa rahii thii kyoNkeh
    / chuuNkeh vo thake hue the aur unke cheroN* ka rang utraa thaa

    Same construct!The presence or absence of zard makes no difference!
     
  13. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    I would still read it as "consequence BECAUSE reason A + reason B" rather than "consequence BECAUSE reason AND independent statement supplying extra information." I would rather reconstruct it, changing it minimally, in the following manner to avoid all confusion:

    adaalat meiN peshi ke mauqe par doctoroN ko chalne meiN mushkil pesh aa rahi thi; pehle se hi ve thake hue the aur unke chehre ka rang zard lag rahaa thaa (I'd have preferred "... zard maloom padtaa tha/ho rahaa tha").
    I've no objection to using "chehre" even if we are talking of many faces, since each doctor has (presumably) got one face! Of course, "chehroN" satisfies the grammatical agreement principles.

    Thanks for the clarification regarding "raliyaaN", QP.
     
  14. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    As a matter of interest, what do you call "yolk" in Hindi?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In my view, as I have indicated earlier, "jab kih" does not fit the sense of the sentence.

    3adaalat meN peshii ke mauqa' par DaakTaroN ko chalne meN mushkil pesh aa rahi thii jab kih vuh thake hu'e aur un ke chihroN kaa rang zard lag rahaa thaa.

    Let's break up the sentence to bring some clarity into it.

    3adaalat meN peshii ke mauqa' par DaakTaroN ko chalne meN mushkil pesh aa rahi thii.

    vuh kyuN?

    kyuN kih vuh thake hu'e the.

    bhalaa yih aap ko kaise patah chalaa?

    bha'ii, dekhaa nahiiN aap ne? un ke chihroN kaa rang zard [lag rahaa] thaa.

    Let's write the whole sentence again.

    3adaalat meN peshii ke mauqa' par DaakTaroN ko chalne meN mushkil pesh aa rahi thii kyuN kih vuh thake hu'e the aur (isii vajh se) un ke chihroN kaa rang zard [lag rahaa] thaa.
     
  16. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I’m astonished that some people have had difficulty in determining how kyoNkeh / chuuNkeh on the one hand and aur on the other are interacting in the sentence below:
    The above is not only idiomatically correct but grammatically too. The usage of the conjunction aur is not as restricted as is being suggested below:
    This is not the only way how aur is used either in Urdu-Hindi or English for that matter. It is quite normal to use aur to mean:
    … and this is how it is being used in the above suggested sentence.

    All this also takes into account common human experience which is reflected in the way we use language. I doubt very much if facial colour / complexion or indeed facial expression was ever considered as the cause of either people having difficulty walking or being tired! If only that were so, then I’m sure these doctors could be easily remedied of their problem by just colouring their cheeks with rouge! It is highly doubtful that this’ll work but one can always try! :) So chehre kaa raang zard honaa cannot ever be cited as the cause of tiredness! We know it is a symptom of fatigue and never the cause! This is what common sense tells us!

    To suggest that people would get confused is to give them very low credit for their intelligence and understanding of both normal experience and how languages work, and in this case how aur is functioning above. However, in case we need to cater for those who for whatever reason might misunderstand that to many of us native Urdu speakers certainly would be perfectly clear (and should be clear too to both Hindi and English speakers – the latter can be seen in the English translation above, besides which there are plenty of other examples one could give) then below are one or two minor changes which should clear things up further:

    3adaalat mein peshi ke mauqe3 par doctoroN / daakTaroN ko chalne meN mushkil pesh aa rahii thii kyoNkeh / chuuNkeh vo thake hue the aur unke cheroN* kaa rang bhii zard lag rahaa thaa

    … and to make it even clearer for those who still might be befuddled, here is another addition:

    3adaalat mein peshi ke mauqe3 par doctoroN / daakTaroN ko chalne meN mushkil pesh aa rahii thii kyoNkeh / chuuNkeh vo thake hue the aur is ke 3alaawah unke cheroN* kaa rang bhii zard lag rahaa thaa

    At the time of the hearing the doctors were experiencing difficulty walking because they were tired and apart from this their faces appeared off colour / they appeared off colour too!

    I would keep aur here despite having is ke 3alaawah, just for added emphasis.

    Also, as I mentioned above, we can also drop “unke chehroN kaa zard lag rahaa thaa” and replace it with “unke chehroN kaa raang utraa thaa”. Just as good.
    Nobody suggested that a doctor has more than one face, non-figuratively speaking of course! But I do see that at least we have acceptance of the plurality agreement rule!
     

Share This Page