Hindi/Urdu: past tense of karnā

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by panjabigator, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Greetings,

    Is it just a Delhi Hindi tendency to say <karā> and <karī> for <kiyā> and <kī>, respectively?

    Best wishes,
    PG
     
  2. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    I think this is pretty common, I hear it from Pakistanis. It sounds "anpaRh" or slangish though.
     
  3. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    If I recall correctly, Platts mentions this (karā /karī) in his "A Grammar of Hindustani or Urdu Language" (published at the end of the 19th century) as an alternative though, <kiyā / kī> have always been preferred by us and Platts also gives the latter preference.

    So,
    <kiyā / kī> are the standard forms.
     
  4. tamah Senior Member

    Tel aviv, Haifa
    Fluent Hebrew, Avg. Hindi & Marathi, Good English, Horrid Russian
    kiya and ki are used more often. I have heard some rajasthanis and delhiites using kara or kari.
     
  5. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    A bit of an update: I've noticed that people do say "kara" in Lucknow as well. It's refreshing to my ears and reminds me of home :) I'd be interested to hear other opinions.
     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    All I will say is that..

    jo thaa nahiiN hai jo hai nah ho gaa yahii hai ik Harf-i-maHramaanah
    qariib-tar hai namuud jis kii, usii kaa mushtaaq hai zamaanah!!

    Iqbal


    I have never ever heard an Urdu speaker use "karaa", "kari" in place of "kiyaa", "kii". Neither have I read anything with this form anywhere in Urdu literature. I could never begin to use this form. It would be equivalent of my saying, "I writed this" for "I wrote this"!
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  7. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    In spoken language, karaa is an oft-heard alternative to kiyaa.
     
  8. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Interesting to know. The rules of common sense do prevail in colloquial speech after all!
     
  9. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yet, this so called "common sense" is not consistent. If it were consistent we would have had have..

    honaa>>>hoyaa (not hu'aa)
    chhuunaa>>chhuuyaa (not chhu'aa)
    jaanaa>>> jaayaa (not gayaa)
    lenaa >>> leyaa (not liyaa)
    denaa>>>deyaa (not diyaa)
    siinaa>>>siiyaa (not siyaa)


     
  10. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    "karaa" as past tense of "karnaa" is very common in spoken language (and an alternative that I would prefer, for phonic reasons, any day).

    As regarding consistency, I don't see what's wrong with that, since there's no one pattern, as it seems to me: the past tense of "bachnaa" is "bachayaa", but that of "rakhnaa" is not "rakhayaa" but "rakhaa", that of "naachnaa" is "naachaa" and so on.
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The point, Greatbear SaaHib, is that a natural language is neither consistent nor always logical but if "karaa" is based on "common sense", then one would expect this common sense to be a bit more prevalent.

    My understanding is that the past participle of "bachnaa" is "bachaa". Just as regular as the other examples you have provided.
     
  12. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    I think I should elaborate a little bit more the post 7. When I said karaa is part of spoken language, I did not mean all spoken language. The use of karaa would have pointed at a specific school of language and even a specific class of people. Personally I have my own predilection towards kiyaa in ways others might find a-normal e.g. saying mai.n fulaa.n kaam kiyee luu.n gaa. I am hypothesizing it carries over from my more natural phrasing ham fulaa.n kaam kiyee lee.n gee. Like panjabigator I too have met one person outside of the Dilli dabistaan who uses karaa, but I suspect it may also be from his circle of friends rather than his Behaari-Bengaali variant of Urdu.
     
  13. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I should also say that I've heard "karia" and "karii" in Punjabi as well. (Not what we use though).
     
  14. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I have n't. This must reflect on the type of company I keep!:)

    It is interesting, is n't it, that Punjabi too has an irregular past participle verb for "karNRaa" in the form "kiitaa"?
     
  15. rahulbemba

    rahulbemba Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    You are right. It is quite and especially common in the North.
     
  16. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Just a small hint as to Pb infinitive of this verb: there can never be a retroflex (i hope I'm using the correct term?) NR
     
  17. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    And what is the explanation behind this assertion?
     
  18. ihaveacomputer Junior Member

    Canadian English
    Following a stem ending with "r" (ر / ਰ), the retroflex "r" (ڑ /ੜ) and retroflex "n" (ن / ਣ), the first nasal consonant of the infinitive is the dental "n", not the retroflex form. I realize this isn't shown in Shahmukhi, but according to standard written Punjabi in the Gurmukhi script, this rule always applies. Are there dialects of spoken Punjabi in which this is not the case?
     
  19. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    Yes I believe there are. In another post I have mentioned the Pakistani folk singer Shaukat Ali. I am almost 100% sure that I have heard him use the word "karNRaa" in one of his songs. If I find it, I shall post a reference to it. In addition, I do believe I have heard this retroflex in Punjabi speech.

    Some Shahmukhi texts do indicate the nasal retroflex with nuun superscript toe. If I find anything from literature, I shall once again post it.
     
  20. rahulbemba

    rahulbemba Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    You are right. I think it has come from there as it is very common there. People from Northern part of India especially Delhi go to places and keep spreading such incorrect usages.
     
  21. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    What a sweeping stereotypical statement!
     
  22. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I agree that this statement seems somewhat biased and stereotypical. Qureshpor, how would you say stereotypical in Urdu, please?
     
  23. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    Please see seperate thread on this topic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
  24. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Hmm...we already have a thread on 'stereotype' (& stereotypical), here!
     
  25. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Hindi is not the language that only you speak or the choices that only you agree with, Rahul; please avoid making huge brush strokes.
     
  26. rahulbemba

    rahulbemba Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Please avoid such personal comments. Please learn to respect others' opinions. That is all I can say to you. What I had said, was based on my experience from what I have seen. There is no need to get provoked or agitated just because it doesn't agree with your experience.
     
  27. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Just a brief comment: I used to think that such a phonetic cluster was not used in Punjabi, but I've read quite a bit of it so far in Gurumukhi. Never heard it so far, though.

    Those terrible Delhites! Promulgating their "non-standard" uses to the gullible, unsuspecting masses. I think this is a sweeping generalization, Rahulbemba. I have heard this from people outside of the Northern India, by the way.

    I'd be interested to learn of the Braj, Haryanvi, or even Avadhi past tenses for "karnaa," as I suspect that their might be something similar going on.
     
  28. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Keep to the facts and accept what you have said. It is not your opinion when you pronounce or declare something "incorrect."
     
  29. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    I thought Hindi was a language of Northern origin? Unless we are now proposing Hydrabadi Hindi is the correct way? Or maybe you are referring to Hindi spoken in Madhya Pradesh
    as the correct way? Should we even begin to consider the "incorrect usages" present in Bombay Hindi?

    Differences from the standard exist and have probably existed from before the standard in many areas. So it is only incorrect when writing a book, not in spoken language.
     
  30. Todd The Bod Senior Member

    Ngo hai ni doh
    English-Midwest
    2 things. I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the Deccan was the center of muslim learning for centuries before the existence of Pakistan, and therefore Urdu was spoken in Hydrabad for centuries before it spread north. Though pretty much all varieties of Urdu have their own region-based slang. Corrections invited.

    Second, my Hydrabadi buddy always uses "karaa", "kare". Example: "Jo Aap karee, Thik karee....".
     
  31. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Thank you for that useful information. You may want to research Dakhini on the web or on wikipedia.
     
  32. aprctr Junior Member

    Urdu
    This is a colloquial or conversational ignorance developed by observing other rhyming verbs like bher (fill) > bheraa (filled), therefore, ker (do) > kara (did) which should be, ker (do) > keeya (did).
     
  33. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    marrish SaaHib, please listen out for karaNR at 1.07 in Youtube.....just type 3) Kurtar Singh
     
  34. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Your long memory is at least worth noticing, Qureshpor SaaHib!

    Indeed, I must acknowledge that he sings karaNR, beyond any doubt. But I'd consider it a different situation than that of the infinitive which we were discussing earlier in this thread.

    I think this explanation below is very apt:

    In case of karaNR کرڻ, the retroflex nasal is phonetically justified as it follows the vowel ''a'', not the consonant ''r''.

    * my correction
     
  35. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ No worries! I shall find karaNRaa too!
     
  36. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    ^ This I've been hoping for, that is why I answered like this. As a side note, I hope I'll be not be wrong to say that in Haryaanvi, it is articulated as karNRaa - if my memory serves me right!

    I've just noticed that you typed karaNRaa - was it intended or is it a typo?
     
  37. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I agreed with you, but then I encountered ਕਾਰਣ, and not just in Gurbani.
     
  38. ihaveacomputer Junior Member

    Canadian English
    It is indeed very common, and was the form I personally preferred before I was corrected by a professor who said it was "too difficult" to pronounce! I wish I had a native's intuition to judge the veracity of that statement!
     
  39. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Probably a regional difference. It was kind of hard for me to say too! I'm sure you'd agree with me when I say that people LOVE to invent prescriptive rules about Punjabi.
     
  40. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    اکھیاں لا کے کی کرنڑا
    نیر وغا کے کی کرنڑا
    مدت ہوئی سُتے نے
    لیکھ جگا کے، کی کرنڑا
     
  41. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Is وغا in this verse the same thing as ਵਗਾਓਣਾ?
     

Share This Page