Hindi/Urdu: take for granted

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by marrish, Jan 22, 2012.

  1. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Hi,

    I'm looking forward to your valuable inputs to express this concept: to take for granted.

    Many thanks,
     
  2. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    These are some of the ways the concept of "take for granted" could be expressed:

    • حق / طے شدہ سمجھنا؛
    haq / tae shudah samajhnaa

    • نہ جائز فائدہ لینا/اٹھانا؛
    na jaiz faida lena/uthana

    • کسی بات، چیز یا شخص کو معمولی / عام / غیر اہم سمجھنا؛ اور نہ قادری کرنا، شکرگزار نہ ہونا، اور غفلت برتنا / میں مبتلا ہونا یا رہنا
    kisi baat, cheez ya shakhs ko ma'moli, a'am, ghair aham samajhnaa; aur na-qadri karna, shukrguzaar na hona, aur ghaflat baratna/mein mubtila hona ya rehna
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    I am afraid I am not sure if I will be able to meet your condition of "valuable" inputs but I shall have a go!:)

    When one takes something or someone for granted, one tends to forget the true worth of the thing (having a job for example and not being unemployed) or the person (one's own parents who go to all kinds of lengths to meet their children's needs and demands). So, if you take something/someone for granted...

    aap us kii qadr pahchaan nahiiN rahe...

    In short, how about "qadr naa-shinaas honaa"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  4. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    To take for granted = to assume = فرض کرنا farDh karna
     
  5. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    I don't really think that "to take for granted" = "to assume"; I agree rather with QP's examples. To take for granted is, for example, when one injures even one's little finger (pinky), one realizes the difficulties involved in the ensuing days: one had always taken the pinky for granted.
    "Farz karna", as far as I know, means a simple "to assume": it could be used even in a sentence like "farz karo ki tum amrika meiN ho, aur phir ...".
     
  6. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu

    Hi, thanks for helping. Some of the expressions above try to convey the concept of 'taking for granted' in a descriptive manner, however not all of them fit to this concept. naa-jaa'iz faa'idah uThaanaa expresses a totally different idea.
    These insights are still helpful for defining the scope of meaning, which 'to take for granted' carries. Still, we are trying to find a proper term or idiom, if possible.

    Moreover, I made some corrections to the spelling of Urdu text as well as the transliteration which is used by your source, one may prefer a different transliteration system but in Urdu I use there is no place for alternative spelling.
     
  7. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I have to admit my fault of not providing any example or being more specific in the original query, though you filled this gap with an example and explanation. This is the context setting I had in mind.

    qadar naa-shanaas does express the idea here, but I'm afraid I've not come across it in Urdu.
     
  8. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It's a good shot. Still, it's not the meaning which I'm looking for.
     
  9. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Another thought! When we take something or someone for granted, it is not as if we don't recognise this, it is just that we tend to forget about it temporarily until something jolts our mind. We have "iHsaan faraamosh honaa" (To forget someone's favours), how about "qadr faraamosh honaa"?
     
  10. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    It all depends on the context! The OP didn't provide a context so what I gave as an example above (<to assume>) is still valid as one of the meanings!
     
  11. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    'To take for granted' has a meaning 'to assume', too, and farz karnaa is nice for this meaning. You are right that this is not the meaning I need. When a youth enters the adulthood, for example, and starts living on his/her own, then only he realizes that he took uncountable comforts for granted, he has never pondered about them and always thought that they are just there.
    Any take for Hindi, greatbear SaHib?
     
  12. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It occured to me as well, as I'm enjoying a cup of tea. Nice coinage, too, however I'd go for qadr-shanaas because it is used in Persian. And in the example I provided in post #9, they have never ever reflected upon this matter, so there is no element of oblivion..
    Another description can be: paidaa'ishii haqq samajh baiThnaa.
     
  13. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I agree that the idea of "taking for granted" can be rendered in a different way by using "qadr" with a negative. For example by saying qadr nah karnaa :

    us ne apnii daulat / tharwat / paise kii qadr nah kii

    He / She took his / her wealth for granted
    He / She didn't value / appreciate his / her wealth
     
  14. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    I don't think so. "Qadr nahiN karnaa" means not valuing something, something very different from not thinking about the qadr of something, and taking for granted means the latter, not the former. Sometimes it could mean the former too, but we cannot replace a more precise idiom with such a general expression.

    It is not really an easy thing to translate in Hindi or Urdu, as an equivalent idiom doesn't really exist (apart from certain proverbs like "ghar kii murgi", which only fit in certain contexts). I would simply say "Usne kabhi is baat ka khyaal hi nahiN kiyaa" for "He always took this for granted".
     
  15. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Another possible expression could be: مرحمت/ بخشش سمجھ بیٹھنا murhamat / bakhshish samajh baithnaa.

    Kind of as in: لگتا ہے وہ تو اپنے آپ کو بخشی ہوئی روح تصّورکرتا ہے!
    lagtaa hai woh to apne aap ko bakhshi hui rooh tassawur karta hai!
     
  16. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I agree and am well aware that many expressions can't be translated easily from one language to another! However I beg to differ from your usual"no it is not this way" opinions! Your above argument makes no sense to me! If you don't value something you do take it for granted! The rest, I’m afraid, is nothing but pedantry!
     
  17. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Could we use "tucch (तुच्छ) samajhna" ?
     
  18. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Does anyone have any views/opinions about whether or not these options could be used?

    نا جانے کیوں وہم ہوتا ہے کہ تم میری محبّت کو (فقط) بکشش/عطیہ سمجھتے/لیتے رہے ہو
    na jane kyon wahm hota hai keh tum meri mahabbat ko (faqat) bakshish/a'tiyah samajhte/lete rahe ho....
    (Don't know why, but I fear that you have been taking/thinking my love (only) for granted...)
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  19. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Rather the opposite! When you take something for granted, you don't value it. However, when you don't value something, the reason may or may not be taking something for granted.
    In short, not valuing something has many reasons, only one of which is taking something for granted.
     
  20. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I’m sorry but this is a convoluted argument! Though I’m a great fan of it, this is not a forum for discussing logic and linguistic philosophy! Instead, we are discussing how we use language to express an idea in common, everyday language and the use of qadr (and its compounds) + negation is certainly one way we have that gives the idea of taking things for granted! There are other way too but this is a perfectly good way of expressing the idea of taking things for granted:

    us ne apnii daulat kii qadr nah kii
    us ne apnii daulat kii naaqadrii kii
    us ne apnii daulat kii qadrdaanii nah kii
    woh apnii daulat kaa qadrdaan nah thhaa
    woh apnii daulat kii qadrdaan nah thhii

    Each of the above can be translated slightly diiferently to reflect the sentence construction but the overall literal translation of these are:

    He / She didn’t appreciate the value of his / her own /wealth.

    But a good, non-literal way would be:

    He / She took his / her own wealth for granted.

    Here is another way:

    us ne apnii daulat ko ne3mat nah samjhaa

    He / She didn’t consider his / her own wealth a blessing

    i.e.

    He / She took his / her own wealth for granted

    I think this might answer your above question regarding the use of "samajhna" in this context! We would and do use it as so!

    The ideas of not considering valuable / not worth taking care of or looking after / not worthy of care etc., all give the idea of taking something for granted.

    In our speech and formal prose, using qadr (and its compounds as above) + negation is a common way to give the idea of taking things for granted. This is very often the way we express it.
     
  21. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    For me, "qadr nahiN pehchanna" is different from "qadr nahiN karnaa". I could translate "He took his wealth for granted" as "Usne apnii daulat kii qadr nahiN pehchaani" but not "Usne apnii daulat ki qadr nahiN kii."

    "Tuchchh samajhna" means to consider something trivial: to take something for granted means to not even consider it, to not have it in your thoughts. To me, both are quite, quite apart.
     
  22. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Really!

    Firstly, qadr nahiiN pehchanna / qadr pehchanna are hardly used, if ever! We never use it! I have a feeling it might even be wrong! While qadr nahiiN karnaa / qadr karnaa are idomatic and are used daily by all and sundry. In fact, the first lot (qadr nahiiN pehchanna / qadr pehchanna) sounds really odd to my ears!! Secondly, I feel this part of the discussion is not heading anywhere as you are now splitting hairs and trying to say the same thing as I said above but by changing a word here and there! It seems you have agreed to use of the word qadr, at least! This is good! All you have to do is accept kaarnaa and then we are done. Of course, for the purpose of the present discussion we shall need to use qadr with a negation, as I've already mentioned above, to convey the meaning we wish to.

    As for samajhnaa by itself first, because that is what I used in the earlier post, that too would be applicable. As for tucch (तुच्छ) samajhna, that is the equivalent of حقیر سمجھنا Haqiir samajhnaa etc. = consider trivial, worthless. Here I would agree with you in the sense that literally it means different from taking something for granted.
     
  23. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Don't mean to redundant, but any views on بخشش/عطیہ ?
     
  24. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Oh! Sorry, I was coming round to this one! Yes, here one can derive the meaning as having taken something for granted. As we are discussing all along, there is more than one way to express the idea of taking things for granted. So here too you can say that aside from the literal meaning, these too can be taken to mean in the context under consideration that one is taking something for granted or has assumed something. The idea of assumption is obviously implied here.
     
  25. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Thanks for the reply! "aside from the literal meaning, these too can be taken to mean in the context under consideration" Isn't the literal meaning of بخشش/عطیہ also kind of similar to grant?
     
  26. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Yes, but there is a difference in the meaning of to grant something ( = to bestow / confer) and to take something for granted (= to assume, consider as given etc.).
     
  27. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    I'm surprised that you've never heard it, since it is highly idiomatic as well and "qadr nahiN pehchaannaaé is used extensively by Hindi speakers.
    It was never about "qadr" and it is not splitting hairs to me; "karnaa" is very different from "pehchanna", and when both associated with "qadr", while both are idiomatic, they mean different things.
     
  28. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I would go along with this. I think this conveys the concept pretty well.
     
  29. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Here some views and opinions about these options. But first of all, for the sake of learners’ benefit, let us correct the spelling of a couple of Urdu words as well as their transliteration.


    1) Correct: مرحمت / بخشش سمجھ بیٹھنا marHamat / baxshish samajh baiThnaa
    2) Correct: لگتا ہے وہ تو اپنے آپ کو بخشی ہوئی روح تصوّر کرتا ہے!
    Lagtaa hai vuh to apne aap ko baxshii hu’ii ruuH tasavvur kartaa hai!


    3) Correct: نہ جانے کیوں وہم ہوتا ہے کہ تم میری محبت کو (فقط) بخشش / عطیہ سمجھتے/ لیتے رہے ہو
    nah jaane kyoN vahm hotaa hai kih tum merii maHabbat ko (faqat) baxshish / ‘(3)tiyah ...


    Although different manners of transliteration exist, they should not be inconsequent, contradictive or misleading.


    In full agreement with post #26 and upholding several other brilliant explanations of the idea laying behind the idiomatic English expression ‘to take something for granted’, my view on the applicability of your endeavours is that they are, so as to say, word-for-word translations, which, at least in this case, are not going to work.

    I find the verbal construction you have used to be on its right place (see post #12). Still, suppose the given phrase ‘to take for granted’ were not an idiomatic English expression (which mustn’t be calqued into Urdu, nor into any other language…), the first option would translate back as:

    - to misunderstand/to confuse something for clemency, mercifulness, forgiveness.

    For the example 2) I don’t really know how I should relate it to the topic of this thread or to the options that you put forward. If you tell me what this example exactly was going to illustrate, I’d be glad to share my view further.


    Finally, let’s have a look at the last example:

    tum merii maHabbat ko (faqat):

    a)-baxshish samajhte rahe ho
    b)-3tiyah samajhte rahe ho
    c)-baxshish lete rahe ho
    d)-3tiyah lete rahe ho

    You’ve been /you kept on
    a) perceiving my affection (solely) as a donation/gift /grant… forgiveness
    b) perceiving my affection (solely) as a donation/boon


    c) and d) have faulty grammar. The are three options:

    - maHabbat kaa 3tiyah lete rahe ho
    - maHabbat 3tiyah jaise lete rahe ho
    - either maHabbat lete rahe ho or 3tiyah lete rahe ho.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  30. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I'm glad about it. I think it can be used successfully.
     
  31. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Sorry for the wrong spelling and transliteration! I was typing quickly and using Google which often misinterprets the English transliterations entered into it; I tried to go back and edit the posts, but that function wasn't working for some reason!:)

    As far as the "v" vs. "w" is concerned, (this has been discussed in other threads in the past) it is a personal preference. A lot of people see the "v" as leaning towards Hindi, while the "w" for Urdu. (Especially in the case of words borrowed from Arabic, where the "wow"/و seems to be closer to the English "w" as in what and not the "v" as in the Punjabi "vaT" or the (Indian stereotyped) pronunciation of the English word "what"!
    The same goes for خ : some write it as "kh" while others like to use "x".

    I believe you are referring to this example:
    I agree it was not the best example to provide! :) This phrase is often used (not necessarily, depends on context) to describe a person who might not be the "most پاکیزہ / مقدس person around town" and more of a "sinner/little devil". So people say that "Seems like he considers himself to be a granted (جنّت) soul/spirit!"

    Sorry, again forgot to check the post in a hurry! was wanting to say: "بطور عطیہ / بخشش لیتے رہے ہو"

    As far as the usage of the two words and directly translating from English is concerned, I thought that these expressions were regularly used in Urdu without any "English influence" (in poetry and media). I also agree with Faylasoof's post #26 that you mention, but if someone says: بخشش سمجھ بیٹھنا doesn't that mean the same as "to take for granted" and not to confer/grant/bestow " بخشنا / بخس دینا/عطا کرنا "
    Before anyone asks me to provide examples, I would say that my memory/قُوّتِ حافظہ ۔ یاد داشت is not as good as some of the other members (like Faylasoof and Qureshpor SaaHib), who seem to have the ability of presenting poetry or other examples right at the spot!:)

    Lastly I'd say that everyone might understand/comprehend/look at an expression or phrase differently, whether it be in Urdu, English, or any other language. While searching for "take for granted" on Google, I saw that people tend to use it with slight differences in SE Asia, as compared to North America or North America compared to Australia...which is why in my initial post I tried to give all the different uses; Faylasoof and Greatbear also had the discussion on فرض کرنا etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  32. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
     
  33. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    That is what I thought too! However, it seems (don't mean to be pinpointing any group) that use of an expression or phrase might differ sometimes (from "Standard English") in places where English is not spoken as a native language. This can be observed if you visit the English forum on WR, where a lot of members ask questions and consider some things grammatically correct, which might not be so in "Standard English"! I believe this is one of the reasons why WordReferenceForums asks members to detail which "form" (Indian English, Luckhnavi Urdu, Brazilian Spanish, etc.) of a language they speak!
    That's why I said it depends (partially) on a person's environment, ماحول, etc.
     
  34. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    The original is qadr shanaaxtan in Farsi, where shanaaxtan = pahchaannaa. From qadr shanaaxtan we get in Urdu: qadr shanaasii, qadr shanaas honaa, qadr shanaasii karnaa etc. So in our speech it is qadr shanaasii karnaa / qadr shanaas honaa. These, I feel, are the original. As for qadr pahchaanna, it may be used by Hindi speakers, and Urdu speakers too, BTW, but not by us because we stick to the original (qadr shanaasii karnaa / qadr shanaas honaa) and to us qadr pahchaanna does sounds strange. Perhaps someone thought qadr shanaasii sounded too foreign (!!) and decided to use qadr pahchaanna. If so, then no harm done. It is fine by mebut for us it is still the former.
    I never said it was about qadr alone! I’m sorry, but this a red herring! I believe it was you who started quibbling over qadr karnaa vs. qadr pahchaannaa, (post#21) which I found an unnecessary digression and you are splitting hairs here:
    For us, and I say this at the risk of repetition, qadr pahchaannaa is qadr shanaas honaa, the latter being highly idiomatic for us. We don’t use the former. Besides this, we also use qadr karnaa, qadr shanaasii karnaa, qadr daanii karnnaa etc. depending, and for you to say the above, that, I feel is simply wrong! For the purpose of this discussion (i.e. the English expression taking for granted), and as I have already said above, one can use a number of expressions, including those employing the verb samajhnaa, but in our idiomatic speech qadr karnaa / qadr shanaasii karnaa / etc. and their negations are certainly commonly used depending what one is trying to say, as is naaqadrii karnaa. So for you to suggest that this “Usne apnii daulat kii qadr nahiN pehchaani" is OK but not "Usne apnii daulat ki qadr nahiN kii, this too is just wrong! We are not discussing the literal meanings of these sentences but how compounds of qadr + negation are used to give he idea of what we are trying to convey:
    So one can use a number of expressions including those with qadr (and its compounds) + negation, or those with samajhnaa + /- negation etc. to convey the idea the idea of ‘to take for granted’.

    Here is another example to consider. For this sentence:

    He had taken it for granted that I shall be going with him

    Now here obviously the use of either qadr (and its compounds) + negation or certain constructions with samajhnaa, like paidaa'ishii haqq samajh baiThnaa, would be wrong. But one can of course use samajh baiThnaa and other verbs and expressions ways to convey what we wish to:

    He had taken it for granted that I shall be going with him

    us ne (yeh) farDh kar liyaa thaa keh maiN us ke saath jaa’oN gaa
    woh yeh samajh baiThaa thaa keh maiN us ke saath jaa’oN gaa
    us ne (yeh) maan liyaa thaa keh maiN us ke saath jaa’oN gaa
    us ne (yeh) maanaa thaa keh maiN us ke saath jaa’oN gaa
    us ne (yeh) tahayyah kar liyaa* thaa keh maiN us ke saath jaa’oN gaa

    Literal meaning of fardh karnaa = to assume and of tahayyah karnaa / kar lenaa = to resolve, make preparations. But as meaning and usage are context dependent, here both would give the idea of assumption / taking for granted if uttered within a certain context, with farDh karnaa / kar lenaa being more usual than tahayyah karnaa / kar lenaa, here.

    As we all agree, there are many ways to convey the idea of ‘to take for granted’. … and we are still counting!
     

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