Hindi/Urdu: tikkaa vs. Tikkaa

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Wolverine9, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    In dictionaries I've only seen tikkaa listed with the meaning "piece of meat"; however, in pronunciation I only hear Tikkaa, never tikkaa. For example, chicken (or murG) Tikkaa. Is tikkaa the more correct form or are they somehow completely different words?
     
  2. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    For me both in writing and pronunciation it has been tikkaa. The only Tikkaa I recall is the famous former General Tikkaa Khan of Pakistan :)
     
  3. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    I have always heard "Tikkaa".
     
  4. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    For me, tikkaa. I'm not sure if I heard Tikkaa, leaving the instance mentioned above by UM SaaHib and the English realization of this word.
     
  5. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Is it tikkaa or Tikkaa? Seems to depend on more than one factor! Originally it was indeed tikkaa as the word is from Persian and that is how we say it in Urdu as well:

    P تکه tikka, s.m. A bit, piece, a mouthful; a small piece of flesh, a lump of meat, a slice, a stake, chop, collop:—tikka-boṭī karnā (-), To cut in pieces, to slice; to make mince-meat (of).

    Urduphones, the older and many younger Hindiphones too that I know still pronounce it as ‘tikkaa’. But it seems that there was a t -> T shift sometime back amongst some and now I hear both tikkaa and Tikkaa! Which is more common? Hard to say.

    As a foodie I keep a tab on recipes! If you search ‘Indian Chicken Tikka’, with added terms ‘Chef Harpal Singh Sokhi’, on youtube, you’ll repeatedly hear him say tikkaa. But if you go to 'Khana Khazana September 20 '11 Kasoori Paneer Tikka', you’ll hear chef Sanjeev Kapoor pronounce it as Tikkaa!

    Obviously all this is not statistically significant and was never meant to be. I’m just pointing out that both pronunciations can be heard; either one of these from figures who make regular public appearances.

    We always say tikkaa and I've always associated Tikkaa with the jarnail SaaHib that UM SaaHib refers to!
     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Tikkaa for me is not tikkah (piece). The former (in Punjabi) is a piece of jewellery worn by ladies on the forehead. I think the equivalent Urdu/Hindi term would be jhuumar.
     
  7. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    That jewelry item is Tiikaa in Hindi; we associate "jhuumar" more with chandeliers.
     
  8. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    In Urdu also Tiikaa is used in a similar sense. It could be a stick-on variety (like a bindi) or a relatively small piece of forehead jewelry. jhuumar on the other hand, is much bigger and elaborate (hanging like a mini chandelier). Good to know jhuumar usage for chandelier in Hindi. In Urdu the popular word for chandelier is faanuus.
     
  9. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Yes indeed UM SaaHIb! Tiikaa is the word in Urdu too for this piece of jewellery. There is of course jhuumar as well, which, as you suggest, is bigger and more ornate. BTW, in our Urdu a chandelier is a jhaaR:

    H جهاڙ झाड़ jhāR [S. झाटः], s.m. A bush, shrub; bushes, bramble, brushwood, scrub, underwood, brake; a kind of arabesque work; a lustre or chandelier; ....
    (You can see that Platts also mentions lustre as a meaning. As for faanuus, we associate this with a special kind of lamp.)

    [... and jhuumar we normally associate with these meanings: H جهومر झूमर jhūmar [S. क्षुभ+रः; cf. S. झुमरिः], s.m. A gathering, assembly, company, band; a company of women dancing; .....—an ornament consisting of a number of chains forming a fringe, which is attached to the top-knot (of a woman's head) and falls on the forehead.]

    Needless to say, the t -> T shift and the change in the 'i' vowel length, together with an unstressed or stressed ‘k’ produce huge differences in meanings: tikkaa (a small piece [of flesh]) versus Tikkaa and Tiikaa (piece of jewellery) going from Punjabi (former) to Urdu/Hindi (latter).
     
  10. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    QP SaaHib, I have heard Tikkaa from my Punjabi friends for what we call Tiikaa, and they distinguish it from tikkaa. Incidentally, we use Tiikaa also for vaccination, as well as for the naturally occurring white mark on the forehead of animals like goats, buffaloes, cows and horses!
     
  11. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    I think Tiika is in the part of the hair and falls in the center of the forehead (some also call it maang Tiika) and jhuumar is suspended slightly to the side and falls to the side of the forehead or the side of the head.

    Curious, for those who say chicken tikka, do you say aaluu ki tikki or aaluu ki Tikki? What about like for soap, saabun ki Tikki?
     
  12. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Ah! There is a difference in tikkaa (small piece), and a Tikiyaa or, for some, Tikkii. So for the flat bread / soap bar / it is ٿکيا टिकिया Tikiyaa, i.e. the flat bread we have with aluu is ٿکيا टिकियाTikiyaa / Tikki. Very different from tikkaa, as in murGh (chicken) tikkaa!
    (Yes, the Tiikaa can refer to the lock of hair that falls on the forehead but we also use the same for the white spot found on the forehead of some cattle and horse - not relevant for a white horse or goat of course!)

     
  13. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    It is tikkah in Urdu as the others have already answered, but I'd simply like to conjecture that tikkah became Tikka when it went to London!
     
  14. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Yes, for us as well. "Tiikaa" is also the commonly used word for tilak. (Also refer http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.2:1:5820.platts). The word has yet another sense: (permanent, fixed) abode; many places in the Himalayas bear this suffix, indicating the place to be an abode of God.
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    khelnaa aataa hai ham ko bhii shikaar
    par nahiiN zaahid ko'ii TaTTii kii aaR

    dil nahiiN raushan to haiN kis kaam ke
    sau shabistaaN meN agar raushan haiN jhaaR

    Hali
     
  16. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    For the word in bold, I only know of one meaning, lol. Is that what's meant here too?
     
  17. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    ^ Ha, ha, I'm afraid it has another meaning, a fence.
     
  18. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    "TaTTii" is a thatched screen. There is an idiom.."TaTTii kii aaR meN shikaar khelnaa" with the meaning "adopting underhand means".

    With the art and skills of hunting we are familiar
    But O Zaahid, there is no screen to provide cover

    If the hearts are not enlightened, then what use are
    A hundred bed chambers with illuminated chandeliers

    "Zaahid" is one of the characters in the classical Ghazal and stands for a religiously devout individual, representing the orthodoxy.
     
  19. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Is this the same as xas kii TaTTii?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  20. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    ^ Yes, but let us get back to tikkaa / Tikkaa!
     

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