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Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by killerbee256, Mar 2, 2013.

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  1. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
    I saw an article about how in the next US census, Portuguese people will be considered Hispanic. Of course this upsets some Portuguese nationals, but Roman Hispania included modern Portugal so from an analytical point view this makes sense. I know there is considerable history behind this; in the middle ages Hispania, España and Espanha were geographic terms only and various Iberian kingdoms including Portugal were known as "little Spains." At what point did this change so that Portugal was no longer "Hispanic"? Was it the merged kingdoms of Leon-Castile and crown of Aragon taking the name? The failure of the Iberian union?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
  2. NorwegianNYC Senior Member

    New York, NY, USA
    Norwegian
    It is more to the point of the failure of the U.S. census system! As an international in New York City, I can give you many examples of this. I have two friends from Brazil - one of them is white, the one other black. They both have residency in the U.S., but one of them was advised to put down 'African-American' and the other 'Hispanic' on the census. My good friend Sami was reprimanded for jokingly checking 'African-American' on the form, although his family is from Egypt, and therefore he could easily justify both claims. The couple Ranjit (from Detroit, his parents are Indian) and Nayma (from Pakistan) were advised to put (respectively) 'South-East Asian' and 'Middle Eastern', although the speak the same language (Hindi-Urdu). On the other hand, Manny (his real name is Manuel and is born in Madrid), was told he was 'White', and not 'Hispanic', because he was from Europe!

    The U.S. census is really not the best way to determine these things!
     
  3. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    Maybe we can actually address killerbee's question, which was not about the US Census?
    This Wikipedia article seems to provide the answer:
    As for English usage, the term Hispanic has apparently not been in continuous use; the OED gives a first citation from 1972, where it refers to Spanish-speaking immigrants, especially those from Latin America, living in the US. The status of Brazilians in the US is not entirely clear to me; for official purposes like the census, a decision has to be made, and I suspect that the Portuguese problem is an extension of the Brazilian question. In any case, if they do decide to enlarge the definition of Hispanic in this way, it will not necessarily catch on in everyday usage, and if it does, it won't be because people recognize the historical reference to Roman Hispania(e). Personally, if I ever needed an adjectival form of Hispania, I would not use Hispanic, but something else, like Hispanian.
     
  4. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
    Thank you, I should check other languages on wikipedia more often. Honestly if I worked for the census I would have chosen Latino instead of Hispanic as it uncontroversially includes the Spanish, Portuguese and all of Latin America, thought that has it's own problems because it can also include Italians, French and Romanians.
     
  5. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    For the most recent census, the terms Hispanic, Latino, and Spanish were considered to be interchangeable when referring to ethnic origin. In other words, the option was consistently offered as "Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin". But then people were asked to specify a more specific origin (e.g. Spaniard).

    And of course everyone is allowed to identify with whatever group or groups they wish, apparently just like in the Soviet Union...
     
  6. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Are you talking about the US, or France?
     
  7. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    The U.S. census doesn't have a separate category for Hispanics; rather, there is one category termed "Hispanic/Latino/Spanish". If Portuguese and Brazilians were to be added to this they would need to add a ".../Portuguese" to the category. And Latino is defined as "having an origin in Latin America", so by this definition French, Italian, etc. would be excluded.
     
  8. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    The US, of course. The French census does not use English terms.
     
  9. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    So who are these people that are "advising" people in no. 2?
     
  10. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    That is not an etymology/language question... Maybe you can ask it in Culture Café.
     
  11. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Moderator note: Can we please concentrate on the original question when "Hispanic" ceased to include Portugal. Discussion of the US census system is beyond the scope of this forum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  12. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    It seems as though the question is backwards. CapnPrep has provided above a source according to which:

    If so, then "Hispanic" originally did not include Portuguese or Brazilians.
     
  13. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
    It's debatable if hispanic was meant to include Brazil or not, as hispanic is used as a regional sudonym for latino, which refers to all Latin Americans. As I'd like to note many Americans, to my great annoyance, don't know that Brazilian don't speak Spanish. As for Portugal the Spanish wiki article says the Portuguese began to think of themselves as being different from the Spanish after the failure of the Iberian union.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  14. Youngfun

    Youngfun Senior Member

    Pekino, Ĉinujo
    Chinese/Italian - bilingual
    I've always understood Hispanic as Spanish, while Iberian meaning Spain + Portugal + Gibraltar, and maybe Andorra too - as in "Iberian Peninsula".
     
  15. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    That is apparently true for the English word Hispanic, but there are older terms like Hispanical that may have been used differently. Also, it was clear that killer's question was not limited to English usage.
    Also known as... the Hispanic Peninsula.
     
  16. Quiviscumque

    Quiviscumque Moderator

    Ciudad del paraíso
    Spanish-Spain
    Original question:

    At what point did this change so that Portugal was no longer "Hispanic"?

    Concerning English (or American English) usage, I cannot make any contributions.

    Concerning Portuguese official stance and the words "Spain", "Spanish", CapnPrep (message #3) gave the answer. As Stanley G. Payne says (my poor translation)

    As far as I know, the last important occasion when Portuguese Crown questioned the use by Madrid rulers of the expressions "Corona de España" o "Monarquía de España" was in times of the Treaty of Utrecht in 1714”.

    Concerning "Hispanoamérica", "hispanoamericano", "hispánico", and Spanish usage, the "Diccionario Panhispánico de Dudas" (RAE) says:

    Hispanoamérica. Nombre que recibe el conjunto de países americanos de lengua española [...] hispanoamericano se refiere estrictamente a lo perteneciente o relativo a la América española y no incluye, por tanto, lo perteneciente o relativo a España.
    Iberoamérica. Nombre que recibe el conjunto de países americanos que formaron parte de los reinos de España y Portugal [...] iberoamericano [...] en ocasiones incluye también en su designación lo perteneciente o relativo a España y Portugal.

    And the "Diccionario de la Real Academia Española" says
    hispánico, ca.
    1. Perteneciente o relativo a la antigua Hispania o a los pueblos que formaron parte de ella.
    2. Perteneciente o relativo a España y a los países y culturas de habla española.

    So, calling "Hispanic" to present Portuguese people is not standard Spanish usage (nor standard Portuguese usage, as far as I know).

    It is only acceptable if you are considering things from a historical point of view, or you want to stress the links between both peoples (but then "ibérico" is the preferred word).
     
  17. Youngfun

    Youngfun Senior Member

    Pekino, Ĉinujo
    Chinese/Italian - bilingual
    Not in Italy. We only call it Penisola Iberica.
     
  18. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    Have you checked? I'm not saying that Penisola Ispanica is commonly used today (in Italian, or in English, Spanish, …) but some authors use it in historical or academic contexts. And some others seem to prefer it for some personal political agenda (see here, for example).
     
  19. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    A bold claim for which I doubt there is any clear evidence. Again I feel that your question is backwards. Rather than asking when the Portuguese began to think of themselves as being different from the Spanish, you would do better to ask when the Castillians, the Catalans, the Basques, etc., began to think of themselves as "Spanish". :)

    But I don't think you'll find evidence concerning either question in the history of the word "Hispanic". The histories of "Spain" and "Spanish" are likely to be more helpful in that regard.
     
  20. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
    Let me make myself clear I don't mean the modern meaning of the term "Spanish" I was referring to pre 1492, before the Castillian kings hijacked the term. When it was still thought of as a geographic term, when Portugal was just one of the "little spains." I'd have to do some research but I think Castillians, Catalans and Portuguese all thought of themselves as "Spanish" from Roman times, thought as I said this was long before Castillians politicized it. The situation in Italy is similar, as it was broken into smaller political units after the eastern Romans lost control of the region and the term "Italian" was purely geographical and for that matter there are areas/people in Italy that dislike being called "Italian" the same way Portuguese and various independence movements in Spain dislike "Spanish"!
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  21. Quiviscumque

    Quiviscumque Moderator

    Ciudad del paraíso
    Spanish-Spain
    Ehmm... Neither "Castillian kings" nor "hijacked the term".

    The official intitulation of Fernando and Isabel was

    Rey y Reina de Castilla, de Aragón, de León, de las dos Sicilias, de Jerusalén, de Granada, de Toledo, de Valençia, de Galicia, de Mallorcas, de Sevilla, de Cerdeña, de Córdoba, de Córcega, de Murcia, de Jaén, de los Algarves, de Algeciras, de Gibraltar, de las Islas de Canaria e de las Indias, tierra firme del Mar Océano, condes de Barcelona, señores de Vizcaya y de Molina, duques de Atenas y de Neopatria, condes de Rosellón y Cerdaña, marqueses de Oristán y de Goceano.

    Ehmm... "Hispania", "España" was never a mere geographical term: it conveyed a certain historical, cultural and political meaning. Of course you cannot export the idea of "national state" to the Middle Ages; the meaning was much more soft.

    I cannot understand your last point. Concerning your first point, may I say that Camoens feels free to use "Espanha"?:

    Ouvido tinha aos Fados que viria
    Uma gente fortíssima de Espanha
    Pelo mar alto, a qual sujeitaria
    Da índia tudo quanto Dóris banha,[...]
     
  22. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
    Forgive me for not being clearer, I mean Espanha as a phonic evolution of Hispania, that retained the connotation of the Latin form. Your right that Castile didn't "high jack" the term directly that it is more complex then that, perhaps a better way to put it would be to say that the Portuguese rejected the term some time after 1640 as a challenge to Castilian imperialism.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  23. cansado New Member

    hungarian
    Also the Romans did differences .Roman Hispania was never an unique provincia,it was always divided in two or more provinciae.It is not a US census problem , but a generalization problem.Often i heard people that superficially says:"he is english",and instead he is irish ..or "he is american" ,and instead he is canadian ..or "he is german" ,and instead he is danish ..or "he is chinese" and instead he is korean.:)
     
  24. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
    I can think of an even better example of what your talking about, the term "British." But in the case of Hispania I think the term developed a since of nationalism or at least of being a kingdom during the Visigothic era.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  25. NorwegianNYC Senior Member

    New York, NY, USA
    Norwegian
    There is an ongoing debate/controversy in the US regarding the labeling. 'Hispanic' is an East coast term, whereas 'Latino' is used on the West coast. 'Latino' is of course short for Sp. latinomericano and Port. latino americano, and is technically a linguistic definition which is meant to encompass Romance language speakers in the Americas. 'Latino' is therefore a better term than 'Hispanic' in this particular regard, since it includes both Spanish and Portuguese speakers, but a 2000 poll showed 65% preferring 'Hispanic'. However, it is not without problems:
    1) Belize and Guyana are Anglophone countries in Central/South America (although Guyana is usually considered a Caribbean country)
    2) (Partly) Dutch-speaking Suriname and Francophone French Guyana, are located in South America, but can be considered Caribbean countries
    3) Quebec is Francophone
    4) Speakers of Native American languages may or may not be included
     
  26. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Why would speakers of Native American languages potentially be included in the definition of Hispanic or Latino?
     
  27. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
    That's one of my problems with the current paradigm, if a person's from one side of the boarder that person is called "Indian" "Native Americans" if they're from the other they're "Mexican," "Hispanic" or "Latino." As an anthropologist this really annoys me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  28. Angelo di fuoco Senior Member

    Germany
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    Пиренейский полуостров in Russian: Pyrenee peninsula.
     
  29. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
    Looks like a loanword from French and perhaps the usage is influenced by Greek Πυρηναία- Pirinaía.
     
  30. NorwegianNYC Senior Member

    New York, NY, USA
    Norwegian
    Killerbee's point is valid. If you grow up speaking Nahuatl, Quechua, Aymara - and perhaps some broken Spanish - you are "Hispanic"; whereas if you are Iroquois, but do not speak a single word of Iroquois, you are Native American. It is a most peculiar system in that regard.
     
  31. cansado New Member

    hungarian
    I have problems to understand how this census works.Apparently it seems to refer to an old law (but i must admit my ignorance ), but when it has been introduced? It has been updated?
    A census definition is :
    "A census is the procedure of systematically acquiring and recording information about the members of a given population."
    Informations on ethnicity can be dangerous,for example, during the WWII this kind of informations helped the Nazis to find more quickly.... people "unwanted".
     
  32. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Just a reminder:

    ;)
     
  33. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Moderator note: The topic of this thread concerns the etymology of Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha and not of the word Latino. If you wish to discuss this, please open a new thread but remember that this forum is about etymology and language history and not ethnology, sociology, demographics etc. The topic of this thread seems to be exhausted and I am therefore closing the thread. I you wish to contribute to the topic, please contact me or another moderator.
     
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