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Hogy egyesüljünk

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by cisarro, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    Hi:

    I'm not sure how to translate hogy egyesüljünk in this sentence:

    Ha, leányka, te vagy a pokol: (hogy egyesüljünk) én elkárhozom
    .
    Girl, if you are the hell: (?) I condemn myself.

    I guess egyesül could be to combine or to unite, and egyesüljünk should be to combine us, right?
    Then could hogy be translated as so that in this case? so that to combine us?

    Köszönöm :D
     
  2. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    egyesül = (several things/people) merge, unite, join -> hogy egyesüljünk = so that we join
    elkárhozom = I (will) incur damnation, be damned: even hell is a place where he would go to be with her!
    -- Olivier
     
  3. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    hogy egyesüljünk = so that we make love ;)
     
  4. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    A meaning a bit too modern for Petőfi :)
    And to answer better the grammatical part of the original question:
    -jünk is the (1st person plural) imperative/subjunctive mood, hogy is a conjunction introducing a dependent clause (Spanish que), together they have the meaning of a purpose: "so that ..."
    -- Olivier
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  5. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    Petőfi was 23-year old when he wrote that verse.....now a 23-year old young man would use a different word.... egyesül is a poetic and popular expression for making love...who the hell is Egon F. Kunz, I do not like his translation at all. Take a look at the Russian translation of Pasternak (we all know who he was), he translated the word egyesüljünk as "cогрешу" [to sin]....and I like his translation very much, really nice and he understood the atmosphere of the verse....
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  6. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    Egyesül basically means "become one" (egyes "of number one", egy "one/a") and a frequent meaning nowadays is indeed "have sex", but other meanings still exist and were probably predominant in Petőfi's time: (organisations) "merge" or "unite" (forces, against a common enemy), (souls) "get very close" (like by marriage and not exclusively sex).
    Anyway, what would that mean ""if you are hell I will get to hell in order to have sex with you", what kind of hell is a hell where people have sex? there is more logic in "if you are hell I will get to hell so that we can be together", because the pain of hell is smaller than not being with you.
    -- Olivier
     
  7. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    yes, egyesül now means "become one, unite"
    I haven't known nowdays they use it for "having sex".
    What was predominant in Petőfi's time I have no idea.
    Czuczor Gergely, Fogarasi János: A magyar nyelv szótára (1862)
    egyesűl:
    1) Egy egészszé alakúl, öszvekapcsolódik, egygyé lesz.
    2) Erkölcsi ért. egy véleményre megy által másokkal.
    3) Párosodik, nemileg közösűl.

    Magyar értelmező kéziszótár, Akadémia Kiadó
    egyesül
    5. irod Szerelmesével közösül, Szoros testi s lelki közelségbe kerül valakivel

    What Petőfi meant (bodily or spiritual uniting) I have no idea...
     
  8. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Yes, even in a modern dictionary it is recognised that in literature the word can be used in the sense of making love even though this term in English is more down to earth and precise, meanwhile the Hungarian is elevated (and probably euphemistic, too, certainly more vague in the details), so "making sex with" is totally out of the question (mainly) for stylistic reasons.

    So I'd translate it like this:
    So, little girl, if you are hell, in order to be with you, I'll go to hell/I'll choose damnation. (Remark how faint the conditional is! He is really determined.:))

    Given that at that period (early-mid 19thC) everybody's aim was "to behave" in order to go to heaven, there is an accent on defying all that, stating (OK indirectly) that the given girl is better than heaven because she is worth even giving it up for! No wonder that this (most accentuated) bit closes the poem.


    But more to the point: hogy (in order to) is a conjunction introducing aim and the verb after that is in imperative to express the same. (Like in French que+subjonctive and I suppose in Spanish it must be similar - as Olivier has already referred to it.) I couldn't say much for "hogy - so that" (even if the meaning seems to be OK) because I am not sure how it could be put in the sentence in English. ("So as to" maybe?)
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  9. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    Hey! thank you very much, this thread gone more interesting than I expected :D
    I agree with Zsanna and others, "making love" doesn't sound too poetic according the original text:

    ....
    Ha, leányka, te vagy a pokol: (hogy
    egyesüljünk) én elkárhozom.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  10. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    egyesülni in that context means to make love and since I am not a native English speaker nor a professional poetry translator I haven't got the slightest idea how to translate it into English...better to ask Shakespeare...the whole poem sounds rustic so I am not sure if it would be possible to make it sound likr that in English...the Russian language can manage it...
     
  11. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Hogy lényink egyesüljenek is more than hogy testeink egyesüljenek. I think this poem is not abot making love, but rather about an "örök egyesülés" in all the senses (inclusive making love, of course). Perhaps, "to become one" could be the English equivalent for egyesülni in this context.
    ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014

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