Hold, keep, save...

Discussion in 'All Languages' started by ThomasK, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    These three verbs might refer to some underlying concept. How do you translate them? What are some derivations based on them?

    Dutch:
    - hold: houden (in je hand), hold in your hand
    - keep : houden, behouden [houding, attitude ]> bewaren (save, preserve, FRE garder)
    - save: redden [a person from drowning, something in danger] (computer: opslaan)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
  2. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    These are tricky words to translate into Portuguese. We have a range of words that can translate each of those, but the right one depends on the context. There is no general one-to-one correspondence with the English words. Some possibilities:

    to hold (in one's hand): segurar, apertar, guardar, ter
    to keep: guardar, manter, ter, salvar

    As for "to save" a computer file, there are a few possible interchangeable choices, with some variation between Portugal and Brazil: guardar, salvar, and gravar are the most common, as discussed in this thread.
     
  3. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    That is what I was afraid of. I have already changed my question a little, making it a little more precise. There is also a link with 'to protect' of course: to guard, bewaken in Dutch, also beschermen, whereas that sounds quite different from houden (mainly keeping in Dutch).

    Do you by the way see quite different meanings in various derivations based on one verb? With us houding, attitude, is not so clearly linked with houden, except perhaps via zich houden, se tenir (to hold oneself ???)
     
  4. apmoy70

    apmoy70 Senior Member

    Greek
    In Greek:

    To hold: «Κρατάω/κρατώ» [kra'ta.o] (uncontracted) / [kra'to] (contracted) < ancient v. «κρατέω/κρατῶ» kra'tĕō (uncontracted) / kra'tō (contracted) --> anc. meaning, to rule, get possession of, control (> Demo-cracy), in MG, to hold, keep in the hand; PIE base *kar-/*ker-, hard (cf. Skt. क्रतु (kratu), might; Gr. «κράτος» 'kratŏs, strength, might (in MG also, the sovereign political entity = state), adj. «κρατύς» kra'tŭs (found only in masc. form), strong, mighty; Proto-Germanic *hardu- > Ger. hart, Eng./Dutch hard)
    To keep (save, preserve):
    1/ «Διατηρώ» [ði.ati'ro] < ancient v. «διατηρέω/διατηρῶ» dĭatē'rĕō (uncontracted) / dĭatē'rō (contracted) --> ancient meaning, to watch closely, observe, in MG, to maintain, preserve, keep; compound, prefix and preposition «διὰ» di'ằ --> through, throughout (PIE *duwo-, two) + v. «τηρέω/τηρῶ» tē'rĕō (uncontracted) / tē'rō (contracted) --> to watch over, guard, retain; the ancient meaning of «τηρῶ» --> to watch over, has survived in some rural regilolects (e.g. in the dialect of the Sarakatsani people): «τηράω» [ti'rao] --> to watch over (the herd, crop etc) with obscure etymology.
    2/ «Φυλάσσω» [fi'laso] (coll. «φυλάγω» [fi'laɣo] & «φυλάω» [fi'la.o]) < ancient v. «φυλάσσω» pʰŭ'lassō & «φυλάττω» pʰŭ'lattō --> to watch, guard, defend, preserve, maintain, cherish (with obscure etymology).
    3/ «Διαφυλάσω» [ði.afi'laso] < ancient v. «διαφυλάσσω» dĭapʰŭ'lassō & «διαφυλάττω» dĭapʰŭ'lattō --> to observe closely, watch closely (AG), to preserve, safeguard (MG).
    To save:
    1/ «Σώζω» ['sozo] < ancient «σῴζω» 'sōzō & «σώιζω» 'sōizō --> to save, keep safe, with obscure etymology (some philologists suggest from PIE *tēw-, to swell* (cf. Skt. तवीति (taviiti), to be strong; OCS тѹръ (turŭ), aurochs).
    2/ «Διασώζω» [ði.a'sozo] < ancient «διασῴζω» dĭa'sōzō --> to preserve through danger, preserve, maintain.

    *the evolution of the meaning is probably:
    To be swollen = to be well-fed/fat > to be strong/safe (for persons and animals)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
  5. Määränpää

    Määränpää Senior Member

    Finnish
    Finnish

    to hold:
    pitää

    • like the French tenir (à), it can also mean "to like someone"
    • it can also mean "to regard something as X"
    to keep:
    säilyttää

    • säilyä = "to be preserved", säilyke = "canned food", säiliö = "tank"
    to save:
    pelastaa (to rescue)
    • pelastuslaitos = "rescue department"
    säästää (to spare)

    • säästöpossu = "piggy bank"
    tallentaa (computer)
    • talteen (adverb) = "into a state/place of preservation", tallella/tallessa (adverb) = "in a state/place of preservation"
     
  6. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Thanks a lot for these interesting contributions!

    @Apmoy: /krato/ as a basic metaphor for ruling... Interesting! -- /tirao/ : do I recognize 'tyrant' in that word ? -- /sotèr/ is quite well-known in Christian doctrine, I believe, Saviour...

    @Määränpää:
    - holding: well, we also have 'houden van' (hold of ???) as the translation of loving nowadays ! --- and 'houden voor' (hold for...) can also mean consider !!!
    - keep...: interesting derivations - we also have conserve[blik] (preservation tin, literally) in Belgian Dutch
    - to save: we also have sparen (spaarvarken, piggy bank)
    - tallentaa: how you use it when referrring to 'to save' then? (How do you translate: 'I have saved it'? Do you say something like : 'I have put it tallentaa/ tallella' or something the like? Can you use it in non-digital contexts as well ?
     
  7. Määränpää

    Määränpää Senior Member

    Finnish
    The verb tallentaa is exclusively digital. A similar verb, tallettaa, means "to deposit". Because they are so technical, I think they might be neologisms formed from the adverbs.

    For concrete small objects, I would use the adverbs: laittaa talteen ("to put talteen", dynamic) or pitää tallessa ("to keep tallessa", static). The adverb behaves like a noun, but it has only three cases and doesn't even have the nominative case. Some of our adverbs are like this.

    P.S. I forgot to add that pitää ("to hold") often means "to keep", and säilyttää is more like "to preserve".
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
  8. ahmedcowon Senior Member

    In Arabic:

    to hold: أمسك /amsak/

    to keep: احتفظ /eħtafaẓ/ - To keep (going): واصل /waaṣal/

    to save: حفظ /ħafaẓ/

    to preserve: حافظ /ħaafaẓ/
     
  9. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    magyar

    hold = tart
    keep = megtart (meg- works like Dutch be-).i.e. perfect verb
    preserve = tartósít, tank > tartály
    save = ment, megment, both imperfect and perfect verb possible
     
  10. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    @AhmedK : could you give me some sentences where the verbs are used with objects?

    @Encolpius: So you can express a lot of those meanings with one root, tart-? Do you have lots of derivations then?

    Could you illustrate that with some sentences where the verbs have (direct) objects?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
  11. Määränpää

    Määränpää Senior Member

    Finnish
    1.) Nämä ihmiset pitävät lupauksensa. ("These people keep their promises.")
    2.) Pidän vaimoni kuvaa työpöydälläni. ("I keep a picture of my wife on my desk.")
    3.) Säilytän vanhoja tavaroitani ullakolla. ("I keep my old things in the attic.")
    4.) Haluan, että tämä puisto säilytetään. ("I want this park to be preserved.")
     
  12. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Great, that would be 'houden' (although...), 'bewaren' and 'bewaren' in Dutch.
     
  13. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    some more: tartalék [reserve, spare], tartalom [content], tartomány [province], tartozik [to owe], tartóztat [to detain]...
     
  14. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    That seems impressive. ...I could imagine a link with Dutch 'houden' (German 'halten') as in 'inhoud' (content), 'voorbehoud' (reserve, fig.), 'vasthouden' (detain), which has a very broad meaning as well, I now come think, as in 'houden van' (to love: hold-of), 'houden voor' (to take x as), '[zich] verhouden tot' (to relate to...), 'houding' (attitude), etc.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
  15. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    I think Hungarian has been influenced by Germanic, German.
     
  16. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    But then even as far as derivations are concerned, you mean?
     
  17. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    Yes, I think even that influenced Hungarian.
    But Czech: držet [to hold] > nádrž [cotainer], zadržet [to arrest], so maybe it's a coincidence, South Slavic država [province, country]...
     
  18. aruniyan Senior Member

    Tamil
    Hold, keep, save...


    pidi(hold), kai pidi (hand hold), kai il pidi(hand in hold / hold in your hand)

    vai (keep) Kai il vaith-iru (hand in keep/ Keep it in your hand)

    Kaapaatru (Kaappu- To protect + aatru- do/act) God save us - Iraivaa emmai kaapaatru
     
  19. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    How about saving, keeping, storing, Aruniyan?
     
  20. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    After giving it some more thought, I've narrowed down the typical translations:

    to hold (in one's hand): segurar
    to keep (an attitude): manter, though we'd be more likely to use a copula to speak of attitudes: to be, to become, to stay...
    to have: ter (this one can often cover both meanings above)
    to save, to preserve, to guard, to maintain: manter (+salvar, preservar, guardar). Manter comes from mão (hand) + ter ("to hold" in Old Portuguese and Latin). It's a cognate of French maintenir.
    to save (a computer file): guardar, gravar (these mostly in Portugal), salvar (mostly in Brazil)
    to safeguard: salvaguardar
    to spare: poupar (+guardar, salvar)
    to store: armazenar
    to squeeze: apertar
    to arrest, to detain: prender, deter
    to protect: proteger (+guardar)
    to hold (something) tight, to hold down: segurar (+apertar, prender)
    to tie (something) down: amarrar (+prender)

    Well, there's seguro, insurance, and segurança, security or safety. I can't think of any other nontrivial derivations right now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
  21. aruniyan Senior Member

    Tamil
    Saer(to join with) also used for "to store", panathai saer(save the money)
    Vai -(Keep) Enn-idam vaithu-kolvaen( I will keep with me)
     
  22. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    That is a huge number of verbs. I recognize ter, manter (prender), -guardar, salvar, preservar, but not poupar or apertar (does not have to do with opening, I suppose). The use of segurar is something I had not thought of but putting in security is a form of protection of course, but the Dutch equivalent verzekeren is not used in that way in Dutch (more like assure, insure, not physical)

    Don't you have lots of words based on the ter root, like de-tent-ion, abs-tent-ion, in-tent-ion (I think they are all based on Lat. tenere)?
     
  23. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I kept thinking of different senses of "to hold" and such... :eek:

    Apertar is a cognate (and synonym) of Spanish apretar, which according to the DRAE comes from lat. tardío appectorāre, der. de pectus 'pecho' (chest).

    There is also assegurar, to insure, to reassure.

    Right. Here are two related to the topic of your thread: detentor, owner, holder, possessor; detido, detainee. But these are clearly related to deter, to hold/possess, to detain. I thought you were asking for less obvious derivations.
     
  24. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    As for the latter: well, any word containing a non-obvious reference to keeping, holding, saving, is welcome as well, you know. ;-)
     
  25. Holger2014 Senior Member

    German
    In German:

    to hold:
    - halten - same etymology as 'to hold', obviously
    - in der Hand halten - to hold in one's hand

    to keep:
    - behalten - prefix be- + halten
    - aufrecht erhalten - aufrecht ('upright') + prefix er- + halten
    ...

    to save:
    - retten - to save someone from dying, for instance
    - Geld sparen - to save money (Geld = 'money')
    - speichern (Computer) - speichern means 'to store'
     
  26. 810senior Senior Member

    Japanese
    Japanese:

    to hold: tsukamu(to take hold of), motsu(to have)
    to keep : tamotsu(to maintain)
    to save : tameru(to accumluate), tasukeru(to rescue), sukuu(to rescue, to pick up)
     
  27. apmoy70

    apmoy70 Senior Member

    Greek
    They sound similar, but they're not cognates I'm afraid. Don't let the MoGr pronunciation of both /η/ («τηράω» [tiˈɾa.o]) & /υ/ («τύραννος» [ˈtiɾanos]) as [ i ] fool you, the two words are not related; «τύραννος» (tyrant) is probably an early Greek borrowing from an Anatolian IE language (possibly from the Hittite tarwana, from PIE *dʰer-/*dʰeregʰ-, to hold, hold firm cognate of Lat. turris, OEng. torr, Gr. τύρσος; all three describe the tower btw). «Τηράω» is not.
    Indeed, «Σωτήρ» Sōtḗr is the Saviour (Lat. Salvātor) but the name predates Christianity by a few centuries, it was the epithet applied to Zeus-protector, «Ζεύς Σωτήρ», "Jupiter Salvātor"
     

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