hope+present simple/will - grammar

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by Quiendijo, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. Quiendijo Senior Member

    Argentina
    Español - Argentina
    Hola :)

    Ya he visto varios hilos sobre este tema, pero no encuentro una regla. ¿Es posible que la oración subordinada que comienza con 'that' determine el uso de 'will'?
    Por ejemplo:

    I hope you find your money.

    I hope that you will find your money.

    ¿Podría decir que esta es la regla para el uso del presente simple o del futuro simple (will)?

    Muchas gracias :)
     
  2. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    El 'that' es opcional en ambos casos.
    Por otro lado, puedes usar tanto presente como futuro en la subordinada.
     
  3. donbill

    donbill Senior Member / Moderator

    South Carolina / USA
    English - American
    De acuerdo. Yo diría "I hope you find your money" y " I hope you'll [you will] find your money". Son más o menos intercambiables. Ambas oraciones se orientan hacia el futuro. Me imagino que la primera sería más frecuente que la segunda, y que la ausencia de 'that' sería más frecuente que su presencia

    Saludos
     
  4. Biffo Senior Member

    England
    English - England
    "to hope" seems unusual in this respect. It somehow contains the idea of futurity.

    If we concentrate only on the future the following shows how exceptional it is:

    I hope you find it. :tick:
    I hope that you find it. :tick:
    I hope you'll find it. :tick:
    I hope that you'll find it. :tick:

    I think you find it. X
    I think that you find it. X
    I think you'll find it. :tick:
    I think that you'll find it. :tick:

    I anticipate you find it. X
    I anticipate that you find it. X
    I anticipate you'll find it. ?
    I anticipate that you'll find it. :tick:

    I'm not aware of any other words that allow the same usage as 'to hope'. Can anyone think of such a verb?
     
  5. donbill

    donbill Senior Member / Moderator

    South Carolina / USA
    English - American
    Interesting. We could change things a bit and say: It is my [hope, wish, desire, dream] that you find the money. It is my hope, wish, desire, dream] that you'll find the money. At the moment, I can't think of another verb that works just like 'hope' in this context, but I'll bet there is one!

    Saludos
     
  6. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    Also "It is possible (that) you (will) find the money."

    As for another verb, there's the fortune teller's "see": "I see (in my crystal ball) that you (will) find the money."

    All these constructions also work for things in past tense (indicative of course): "It is my hope/wish/desire/dream" / "It is possible" / "I see (in my crystal ball)" that you found the money. And they work with past tense in the main clause: "It was ..." / "I hoped" / "I saw (in my crystal ball)" that you found/find/will find the money.

    There is no subjunctive or backshifting of tenses with "I hope" or any of these other options. The idea behind "I hope" is that we hope for, and "see", a possible reality, not a counterfactual or dubious situation.
     
  7. Biffo Senior Member

    England
    English - England
    I'm not convinced. This seems equivalent to "I see you finding the money (right now)"

    The fortune teller is watching the action happening at the time of speaking. It's an internal movie. The fact that it also happens to be a prediction doesn't place the action in the future.

    It means "I see you doing X now and I predict that my vision will come to pass in reality."
     
  8. echinocereus Senior Member

    English United States
    Hi, Biffo, I think there is a way to say "I think you find..." Suppose a friend of mine found an article cut out of a newspaper or a magazine and he really liked the author's ideas. He might say to me "Where do I find more articles by this author?" I might then answer "I think you find his columns every week in Magazine X." Un saludo. :)
     
  9. Biffo Senior Member

    England
    English - England
    Yes but that is the habitual sense. "I think you [usually/always] find his columns...". I'm talking specifically about the future. :)
     
  10. echinocereus Senior Member

    English United States
    Sorry. You're quite right, Biffo. I've been trying to think of a verb that will work like "hope," even checked with a friend who is also a lover of language. No other verb springs to mind. "Hope" may be unique in allowing a following verb in present tense to imply futurity. :)
     
  11. abb1025

    abb1025 Senior Member

    USA
    English USA
    What do you think of the verb bet?

    I bet that you find it.
    I bet you will find it.
    I bet you find it.
     
  12. echinocereus Senior Member

    English United States
    Yes! Ailurophile Abb1025, "bet" will certainly work like "hope." :)
     
  13. Biffo Senior Member

    England
    English - England
    :thumbsup:

    So what is it about these verbs that makes them special?
     
  14. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    Expect?

    I expect that you find it.
    I expect you will find it.
    I expect you find it.
     
  15. abb1025

    abb1025 Senior Member

    USA
    English USA
    Good one!

    Also suspect?

    But why are they special?
    That's the real question, isn't it? :)
     
  16. Biffo Senior Member

    England
    English - England
    No, that doesn't work.
    "I expect you find it tomorrow." :cross:
    "I expect you to find it tomorrow." :tick:

    I don't know why.
    I can't see how that works either.
    "I suspect you find it tomorrow" :cross:

    _______________________________________________________
    NOTE
    I suggest that the verb has to work with the word 'tomorrow'.
    I hope you find it tomorrow. :tick:
    I bet you find it tomorrow. :tick:
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  17. Biffo Senior Member

    England
    English - England
  18. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    or to "I see you finding the money (tomorrow)."
    My theory is that hope also involves an internal movie being watched at the time indicated by the tense (e.g. hopes vs. hoped).

    With these "internal movies", present and future action can both be expressed with simple present, despite the inherent ambiguity (sometimes, but not always, resolved by the larger context):

    I hope he is where he is meant to be. (now, or tommorrow)
    I hope they smoke only in designated areas. (always, or when they go out to eat tomorrow)

    This is the same ambiguity that happens with modals:

    He may be where he is meant to be. (now, or tomorrow)
    They may smoke only in designated areas. (always, or when they go out to eat tomorrow)

    ... and with all those "I saw"s in the book of Revelation/Apocalysis.

    Expect and anticipate do imply futurity (as opposed to internal movies), and that is why they sound strange with simple present. I have certainly heard expect used with simple present, but I have assumed the speaker really meant "suspect" or "speculate".
     

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