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How was your trip?

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by RockGuitarizt, Jun 2, 2013.

  1. RockGuitarizt Senior Member

    English - USA
    Dzien dobry!

    I've recently started learning Polish (yesterday) and I'm trying to wrap my head around all of the declensions and cases. I understand case structure pretty well (I studied latin for a year, and I learned fluent German) but the declensions are really a struggle for me.

    If I wanted ask someone "How was your trip?", is 'trip' still nominative? Also, would it matter to use jak or jaki/jaka/jakie?

    my attempt:

    jaka była twója podróż?

    similarly, when an object in the accusative is involved, what happens to "twój" as in

    Chcę jeść twój jedzenie. or Widzę twója brata. (sorry for these overly-simple sentences. I don't know many words.)

    I found a chart that said the accusative masculine is "twójego" so I can't figure out if the endings match the nouns' endings or if the possessive pronouns have their own personal set of declensions.

    z góry dzękuję bardzo.

    -Ian
     
  2. BezierCurve Senior Member

    Hi RockGuitarizt,

    that's a very good attempt.

    In fact "jaka była twoja podróż" (with the "ó" changing into "o" in "twoja") is grammatically correct, however, if you want to sound more natural you can say simply:

    "Jak podróż?"

    or

    "Jak upłynęła ci podóż?" = "how did the trip go?".

    EDIT: In all examples "podróż" is in nominative case.

    Possessive pronouns usually take the endings of adjectives in similar cases (so, yes, it's more like their own endings as compared to nouns; they have little in common).

    In accusative there is also another important factor - is the noun animate or personal vs. inanimate (or treated as such)?

    In your examples:

    Chcę jeść twoje jedzenie. [jedzenie > neuter noun, behaves as if it was nominative]

    Widzę twojego brata. [brat > masculine personal noun, ending similar to genitive]

    compare to:

    Widzę twój dom. [dom > masculine inanimate noun, therefore behaves like it was nominative].

    You can have a look here to read more on the categories of nouns.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  3. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Hello, Ian,

    The chart doesn't give the correct inflection, I'm afraid. You may want to have a look at this website:
    http://polish.slavic.pitt.edu/polish/
    Below I'm pastig a sample of inflection (for the word 'twój'):
    adj.: twój
    CLOSE
    twój m. n. f. mppl. other pl.
    Nom. twój twoje; twe twoja; twa twoi twoje; twe
    Gen. twojego; twego twojej; twej twoich; twych
    Dat. twojemu; twemu twojej; twej twoim; twym
    Acc. =N/G twoją; twą twoich; twych twoje; twe twoją; twą
    Instr. twoim; twym twoją; twą twoimi; twymi
    Loc. twoim; twym twojej; twej twoje; twe




    Just to add to what Bezier's written, you still need the nominative in your sentence with 'trip', because it is the subject of the sentence, which is always in the nominative as far as I know. I agree that "Jak podróż?" is probably the most natural way to say this question in Polish.
     
  4. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    A piece of advice for the beginner: remove the short forms (twe, twa, and so on) from the table. They are not used any longer in either colloquial or formal speech, only in poetry. You will find them also in older literature, but not in today's speech.
     
  5. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I'd generally ascribe them to the bookish style found, for example, in literature, songs or religious texts. If you don't work with this kind of language, you won't need them much.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2013
  6. PaciaP New Member

    Sydney, Australia
    English - Australia, Polish - Poland
    Hi Ian,

    You can also use for "how was your trip?" - "jak minęła twoja podróż?" This is the most natural way to say this. It literally means "how did your trip pass?"

    Jak is 'how' - can be used before verbs
    Jaki is 'how' for masculine nouns, such as 'Jaki jest twój numer?' (numer being number a male noun)
    Jaka is 'how' for feminine nouns, such as 'Jaka jest pogoda?' (pogoda being weather a feminine noun)
    Jakie is 'how' for plural nouns, such as 'Jakie masz numery?' or 'Jakie są pogody?' (numery being numbers a male plural noun/ pogody being weathers a feminine plural noun)

    Hope this helps :)
     
  7. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    "Jaka była twoja podróz" -- would be the Nominative, and "jaką miałeś podróż" -- the Accusative, however, if you wanted to sound natural, the question would usually be asked as: "Czy miałes dobrą podróż? (The Accusative) Both versions can be really used but your original version sounds slightly like a word for word translation.

    "Twe" and "twą" are to be found in poetry. I don't think most people would use it in everyday speech these days.

    " Chce jeść twoje jedzenie", might not be idiomatic Polish, after all, although it is grammatically correct. "Chciałbym spróbować twojego jedzenia" might be better. (Genitive)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  8. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    There is no direct and simple correspondence between “jaki*” and “how”.
    “How” is principally an adverb, and can only be directly translated as “jak”.
    In English there is no exact one word equivalent of “jaki”. To translate the word you have to use “what like”.
    Some expressions with “how” can be translated with “jaki”, for example “How was your journey?” is an equivalent to “Jaka była twoja podróż**?”, but not because how=jaki.
    In the English sentence “how” is an adverb determining the verb “was”, in the Polish sentence “jaka” is an adjective determining the noun “podróż”.
    *For simplicity I skip the feminine and netrum forms.
    **This expression is actually not idiomatic Polish.
     
  9. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    "Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?" sounds to me like a calque from English.
     
  10. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    Which post are you commenting here?
     
  11. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I was referring to post #7:
    I think that 'Jak podróż ?' and 'Jak minęła (ci) podróż?' are the most natural and idiomatic in this context.
     
  12. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I think it sounds Ok--it may be a Germanism to some extent, but I think it is used this way.
     
  13. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    I hate to break it to you, Liliana, but it does not. I fully concur with Thomas. 'Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?', although perfectly understandable, sounds foreign to my ears. No native speaker of Polish would ever say that, no way. I'd ask:

    A) Jak minęła ci podróż? How was your trip?
    B) Bez niespodzianek, dziękuję. Uneventful, thanks.
     
  14. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    It depends on the region. Many people from the regions that were influenced by the German language, rather than Russian, like in the Eastern Poland, even if they don't have any accent whatsoever use often German constructions, and I personally do no see anything weird in it. ;)

    I have heard it often in the US -- I am sure, at the airport when someone was greeting another person. (Polish-speaking people -- I have no idea where they came from).
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  15. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Well, if someone really uses that construction, they might just as well start adopting German as their language of preference, because in Polish we don't ask 'Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?', however bold it may sound.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  16. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Who is we, Dreamlike? By the way: "How was your trip?" does not really translate exactly into anything about "podróż". It means more if you had fun during your trip rather than if there was a lot of traffic or not on the road. I think the translation should be really different. "Czy udała się wycieczka", perhaps.
     
  17. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    By 'we' I mean speakers of Polish, be they native or non-native, who speak good Polish and attach importance to the way they speak, among other things by avoiding foreign constructions that sound odd. 'How was your trip?' can mean just that -- whether one's journey was tiring or not -- but of course it can also have the meaning you describe. I thought the OP meant the former.
     
  18. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Yes, that could be one of the meanings, but not the only one. It usually means if your enjoyed your trip.
     
  19. NotNow Senior Member

    English
    If someone makes a short trip, such as an hour by car, may you ask Jak jazda?
     
  20. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I'd suggest 'Jak się jechało?'.
     
  21. BezierCurve Senior Member

    It would be still understood if the context was obvious. Otherwise the very word "jazda" would be instantly associated with some technical aspect of the trip, like driving a vehicle, cycling or riding a roller coaster (how the car behaved on the road, was the road bumpy, etc.).

    I believe asking "How was your trip?" is related more to the overall impression or feeling about it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  22. DW

    DW Senior Member

    Polish
    I'd also suggest "Jak droga?":tick:; mind you, in this expression "droga" does not relate only to the current road conditions, really. :)
     
  23. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    I think that ’How was your trip?’ could also be translated as ’Jaką miałeś podróż?’
    Maybe also as: Jak ci się jechało? Jak ci się leciało?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  24. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    You wrote about “Czy miałeś dobrą podróż": “No native speaker of Polish would ever say that, no way” and: “if someone really uses that construction, they might just as well start adopting German as their language of preference, because in Polish”.

    I think it is risky and bombastic to make such statements.
    Never say “never again” said James Bond. How can you be so confident about future? Take a break.

    Expressions “Czy masz dobrą pracę?”, and “Czy masz dobre mieszkanie”? are perfectly grammatical and idiomatic Polish. What can stop ““Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?” from becoming another idiomatic expression? What’s so particularly German about it?
    You can not deny either that genuine foreign calques flourish in today’s Polish, many of them breaking grammatical and syntactical rules of Polish, or creating comical neologisms, like “top modelka”, “epapieros” or “komórka” (about cellular phone).
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  25. DearPrudence

    DearPrudence Dépêche Mod

    IdF
    French (lower Normandy)
    Actually, he was talking about "Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?", not "Jaką miałeś podróż?: does it make a difference?
     
  26. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    “Jaką miałeś podróż?" could ask about a detailed description of the trip. But it could just as well be a polite expression like „Jak minęła ci podróż?„ or, in English, "I hope you had a good trip."

    “Czy miałeś dobrą podróż" is a calque of "Did you have a good trip?"
    “Jaką miałeś podróż?" ~ Dobrą.
    „Jak minęła ci podróż?„ ~ Dobrze.
    You could probably add a thank you - Dziękuję.

    But if it was a long-haul flight the answer would probably be:
    “Jaką miałeś podróż?" ~Długą i męczącą.
    „Jak minęła ci podróż?„ ~ Była długa i męcząca.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  27. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I've been wondering about this too ever since I remarked that 'Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?' isn't idiomatic and natural in Polish. I think it can be used and some people will do probably, but I can't say wether I would. However, 'Miałem męczącą podróż.' sounds perfectly good to me.

    Sorry for being a nitpicker, but would you really say 'Dobrą.', or making it a full sentence 'Miałem dobrą podróż'?
    Again, it sounds somewhat foreign and unnatural to me.
     
  28. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    “Jaką miałeś podróż?" is used by PWN so it has to be idiomatic. The answer 'Dobrą' or 'Całkiem dobrą' or ’Męczącą’ should be OK. I could even say 'Miałem dobrą podróż' if someone was hard of hearing. Why not?
     
  29. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    I view 'Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?' as unidiomatic Polish, as simple as that. It's not a natural-sounding question. To me, it would automatically reveal a person as a non-native speaker of Polish. If a native speaker of Polish said that, I'd be astounded. I''m not going to explain why I see it that way, because I find that to be obvious. As to your last question, it was Liliana who said it's a germanism. I can't speak to that, I just followed her suggestion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  30. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Thank you.

    I'm usually more charitable towards various usage of language, but I must admit that 'dobra podróż' just doesn't click to me quite as good as 'dobra książka', 'dobra literatura/muzyka' or 'dobra wróżba', 'dobry znak', for instance.

    What do you make of 'Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?' Do you find it idiomatic and natural in the context of asking someone about their trip?
     
  31. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    The problem is not if the expression is idiomatic or not (it might not be), but the bombastic claim that it never can become one, which is ridiculous, as any expression, even the most unusual can become idiomatic.
     
  32. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Ben Jamin, I only said that it isn't natural in [modern] Polish. I still believe it isn't, but some of the answers in this thread prompt me that this may not be the case to some of the reponders.

    I'm sincerely trying to find out whether other Polish native speakers find the sentence 'Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?' idiomatic. Are DL and I the only ones that don't?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  33. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    All right, let me put it this way: there are many idiomatic expressions available for everyone to use meaning 'How was you journey/trip?', no need to come up with another one. I don't think this could ever become an idiomatic expression, because it sounds terrible -- at least to me and Thomas. I'm also curious to know what others make of that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  34. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    There are plenty of Polish idiomatic expressions that sound terrible to me.
     
  35. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    I love idioms very much and this thread fascinates me. You might be interested, too, how it works in Czech. Since the literal translation of the English "Did you have a good journey" is completely idiomatic in Czech, I really think, Liliana must have been influenced by some regional variants. She kept writing about Silesia...Of course Czech idioms have often German origin. And the Polish translation I have found in my dictionary is (not what Liliana suggested): Dobrze minęła pana/pani podróż? I hope it sounds fine. :)
     
  36. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    I think it is important to distinguish between idiomatic vs non idiomatic expressions, and idioms. An idiomatic expression is a part of a repertory of of all grammatically and lexically expresions possible in a language, that is preferred to other, equally grammatically and lexically expresions possible in the language. The expressions in the repertory must be logical. An idiom is an expression that is used for its strength and short form, but is NOT constructed according to rules. It is often either ungrammatical or illogical, and translated to another language is nonsensical. "shall I give you a lift" becomes nonsensical translated to Polish, while "gdzie cię podrzucić" is nonsensical translated to English.

    In the case of "czy miałeś dobrą podróż?" the expression is perfectly grammatical, logical, lexical, and conforms to all other possible rules. It is only seldom used, as it sounds maybe a bit formal, and people prefer shorter, and more colloquial forms. If an upper class existed in Poland of today, with their good manners and careful speech, the form would be the one preferred by them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  37. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Do you have some piece of evidence in support of what you're saying?
     
  38. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    Saying what in particular?
     
  39. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    [My bolding.]

    This is what I mean. Other wordings given in this thread, for example, 'Jak podróż?', 'Jak minęła podróż'?, are what most of us would opt for. One can contrive many possible phrases, but not all of them are equally good.

    I think that saying the phrase 'Czy miałeś dobrą podróż?' would either not ever be used by XYZ or be the one preferred by XYZ is too absolute.
     
  40. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    If you are referring to my guess that "czy miałeś dobrą podróż?" would be preferred by an upper class, then it is a misunderstanding. There is nothing absolute about about it, just one of many possibilities, the point was to contrast the very colloquial ("street smart"?) alternatives like "jak jazda?".
     
  41. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    It didn't sound like a guess to me, rather it sounded like stating the facts. 'Street smart' means something different, I wouldn't describe any phrase, or anything having to do with language, as being 'street smart' or otherwise.
     

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