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Hubieron / fueron cuatrocientas mil personas

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by cadenzar, Jul 23, 2013.

  1. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    I know the below sentence is not correct:
    Wrong: Hubieron cuatrocientos y treinta mils personas la asistieron.

    Someone has made it in this way:
    Grammatically correct: Fueron cuatrocientas treinta mil personas las que asistieron.

    There is a better way to say it:
    Correct: Se manifestaron cuatrocientas treinta mil personas.


    My questions are:
    1. "Hubieron" is the past tense form of "hay", in English means "there is...". I wonder why it is incorrect.
    2. Why should we use "fueron" (Ser) here? What does it mean in English?

    Thanks for helping me in advance.
     
  2. ParagonOfVirtue Junior Member

    Español (Venezuela)
    You can also say "Hubieron 430.000 asistentes". (Very colloquial way to put it. It's used only in informal contexts, probably a misstep.)

    In the case of: "Fueron cuatrocientas treinta mil personas las que asistieron," it would literally translate to "They were 430.000 people who (the ones that) assisted," and is how you'd have to say it if you want to use the word "asistieron"
    This is because is the people (subject) who are assisting (
    son los que asisten).
    The verb "to be" is split into the verbs "ser," "estar," and "haber," in Spanish (despite what some books say ;)). Generally:

    "Ser": is used when the subject is something (e.g. the one who assists).
    "Estar": is used when the subject is somewhere or in a continuous state (which can be an adverb or even the state of doing an action).
    "Haber": is used when something exists in a given context (e.g. a meeting/event which has assistants).

    Hope this helps ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  3. ACQM

    ACQM forera que modera

    Manresa (Barcelona)
    Spain - Spanish
    NO puedes decir "hubieron 430000 asistentes":cross: eso es INCORRECTO.

    That is because "haber" when meanning "to exist" is impersonal, has no subject and it's always used in 3rd peson singular. You may say "Había 430000 asistentes/personas en la manifestación".:tick:

    "Fueron 430000 personas las que se manifestaron" and "Se manifestaron 430000 personas" are both correct.
     
  4. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Thanks very much!

    1. Can I say "Había cuatrocientos y treinta mils personas la asistieron."?

    2. Why can we use "fueron" (SER plural) here? It´s not impersonal, right?
     
  5. ACQM

    ACQM forera que modera

    Manresa (Barcelona)
    Spain - Spanish
    1. No. You can use "Había/Hay 430000 personas que asistieron (a la manifestación)".

    2.It is not impersonal. The subject of "fueron" is "430000 personas": "430000 pesonas fueron las que asistieron a la manifestación" or "430000 personas fueron las que se manifestaron".

    3. Another option verbs "ir" or "asistir": "A la manifestación fueron/asistieron 430000 personas" (notice that "fueron" here is form "ir" not form "ser")
     
  6. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Hi ACGM,

    A.
    For "Había
    cuatrocientos y treinta mils personas la asistieron." y,
    "Había/Hay 430000 personas que asistieron (a la manifestación)".
    The difference is 1) "la asistieron" y 2) "que asistieron".
    Is it because the sentence of 1) has two verbs which should need "que" to separate them?
    If yes, can I say "Había/Hay 430000 personas asistiendo/asistido."????

    B.
    I don't understand why we should use "las que" in "430000 personas fueron las que asistieron a la manifestación". What does "las que" mean here?
    Why don't we just say "
    430000 pesonas fueronasistiendo/asistido a la manifestación" OR "430000 personas fueron a la manifestación"??

    C.
    It really confuses me that "fueron" can be "SER", "IR". How to distinguish them?

    Thanks for your helping!
     
  7. ParagonOfVirtue Junior Member

    Español (Venezuela)
    Yes, :) you would use "que" here, as you would say "who" or "that" in English, to introduce a subordinate clause: "There were 430000 people who/that assisted (the event)", Though you'd usually use "assisting" in English in this case: "There were 430000 people assisting" : "Había 430000 personas asistiendo". :tick:

    You would use a subordinate clause to say the action (additional verb) that the "430000 people" performed, since these people are already the direct object of the verb "Haber," unless you used the gerund "asistiendo" which would work as an adverb, with no preposition needed. ;)



    "Las que" would be "the ones who" in this phrase. The "las" would be put there to refer back to the subject, since it's not right next to the subordinate clause.
    Your last example is perfectly correct
    :D (all of these are using the verb "ir," by the way)

    "Fueron asistiendo" would literally be "they went assisting," is not wrong by itself, but it has a different meaning, implying that the action (in this case "asistir") was taken in several steps, as if there were several events to assist to, or one event with various "stages," or maybe even that the event was very long & individual persons only stayed for short periods.

    A simple way to tell them apart is the context: you "are" (ser) things & adjectives, but you "go" (ir) to places & events :D

    PS: please forgive me if my Spanish is very informal (with it's missteps) at times :eek:
     
  8. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Thank you very much ParagonOfVirtue

    So, both of below are correct?
    1. 430000 pesonas fueron asistiendo a la manifestación.
    2.
    430000 personas fueron a la manifestación.

    I am still not very clear about the meaning of the above two sentences. Could you please clarify more?

     
  9. ACQM

    ACQM forera que modera

    Manresa (Barcelona)
    Spain - Spanish
    The first is grammatically correct but is weird and it doesn't mean the same as, Paragon said, forget about it.

    "ir+GERUNDIO" has the meanning of doing something continously or step by step, for instance: "Los niños fueron aprobando todos los cursos en el colegio, en el instituto."
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
  10. Romy10

    Romy10 Junior Member

    Uruguay
    Spanish
    Hi!
    Just a comment:
    If you were talking of accidents, as an example, instead of people, you should use HUBO and not "hubieron". "Hubo 10 accidentes la semana pasada" (There were 10 accidents last week).
    Few people know this, but this is the correct way to use the past of haber.
    Hope this helps you!
    Regards!
     
  11. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    Accidentes, personas y... cualquier otra cosa.
    Incluso uruguayos:):
    Ayer hubo tres uruguayos en la reunión.
     
  12. Romy10

    Romy10 Junior Member

    Uruguay
    Spanish
    ¡Sí, claro! Concuerdo contigo. Es solo que en el caso de personas a veces suena mejor decir "fueron xx personas" en lugar de "hubo" aunque gramaticalmente "hubo" también es correcto.
    Al menos aqui en Uruguay es más común decir "fueron".

    En tu ejemplo suena perfecto, pero en el planteado al comienzo de este hilo parecía sonar mejor "fueron".
    ¡Saludos desde Uruguay!
     
  13. James2000 Senior Member

    English - South Africa
    There seems to be some overlap here between 'hubo' and 'había', or perhaps just a difference of opinion or emphasis.

    Pueden comentar un nativo sobre cuál es la forma correcta. ¿O son ambas correctas?
     
  14. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    Hubo (pretérito, aspecto perfectivo): the action is regarded as complete.
    Había (imperfecto, aspecto imperfectivo): the action is regarded as not complete.

    Both tenses are right but used differently.
     
  15. James2000 Senior Member

    English - South Africa
    Perhaps cadenazar had in mind for (1) a sentence more like this:

    430000 people were attending the demonstration (when suddenly the police arrived)

    which I would translate as follows (opinions welcome):

    430000 personas estaban asistiendo a la manifestación (cuando, de repente, llegó la policía)

    The second (2), I would translate as:

    430000 people went to the demonstration.
     
  16. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
     
  17. James2000 Senior Member

    English - South Africa
    Thanks Agró
     
  18. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Thank you guys for your help very much!

    My English isn't good.
    Actually I wanted to translate this sentence into Spanish:

    There were 430,000 people who attended the demonstration.

    I translated it word by word like below:
    Hubieron cuatrocientos y treinta mils personas la asistieron.

    But now I know the translated sentence have two mistakes:
    1, There are two words but without conjunction.
    2. I thought 430000 persons were plural so I used "hubieron" (there were). But according to you guys, the word "Haber" should be impersonal and is always 3rd person singular, no matter the subject is plural or not.

    Correct?

    To distinguish the difference between "Ser" and "Ir", can I accept the explanation of [you "are" (ser) things & adjectives, but you "go" (ir) to places & events"? ]

    By the way, I guess in Venezuela people would speak in the way as what Paragonofvirtue told. I guess he was not wrong?
     
  19. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    C'mon! All at the same time?
     
  20. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    Yeah, a pandemonium.
     
  21. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    Yes, you can safely do the 'are things. adj./go to places,events'. (It's not 100%, but you'll be close).
    Now, let me totally disagree with 'estaban asistiendo'. No way. It's more common:

    430000 personas estaban en la manifestación cuando la policía...

    The 'estaban asistiendo' smells like a Google translation.
     
  22. ParagonOfVirtue Junior Member

    Español (Venezuela)
    Many people here do speak like that. A good number of them are also aware that is grammatically wrong. Some grow out of it, but some keep using it out of habit :p.

    PS: for the worst grammatical offenders we have a special word: "Tuki." For some examples: http://inciclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Tuki (Warning: a native speaker of actual Spanish could have some problems understanding these ;))
     
  23. Mackinder

    Mackinder Senior Member

    Bogota
    Espagnol - Colombie
    Y recuerden: el verbo haber nunca se conjuga en plural cuando de nombrar cantidades se trata. :)

    "Había muchos dulces en la cocina."

    "Habrá galletitas y pastel en la fiesta?"

    "Si hubiera habido más sillas, habríamos podido sentar a más gente."
     
  24. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Thanks very much my friends!!
     
  25. nocturnoinvernal

    nocturnoinvernal Senior Member

    Buen día
    No puede ser hubieron porque la misma expresión no permite este uso. Si usted intercambia la oración de esta manera, lo verá:
    -400,000 personas fueron las que asistieron.
    -400,000 personas hubieron las que asistieron (no tiene sentido)

    Lo que sucede es que la expresión española es "ser el que":
    -Tú fuiste el que me lo dijo.
    -Aquéllos fueron los que mejor lo comprendieron.

    Ahora bien, manifestarse no es en sí lo mismo que "ser el que", ya que manifestarse puede aludir a hacer una protesta o reunirse para protestar:
    -400,000 personas se manifestaron (se reunieron para protestar)

    Quizá lo que haya querido decir era: "400,000 personas hicieron acto de presencia"

    Ojalá esto le ayude mejor.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  26. ACQM

    ACQM forera que modera

    Manresa (Barcelona)
    Spain - Spanish
    1. You mean two VERBS.
    2. There is NO subject if the verb is "haber" with the meanning of exist thats what "impersonal" means, there is no subject at all, in "Había/hubo 430000 personas" 430000 personas is the direct object, not the subject!!!!
     
  27. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Thank you my friends!
    Yes ACGM you are right! Thanks for correccting me.

    - 400,000 personas fueron las que asistieron."
    For "las que", it refers to 400000 persons, right?

    Can I say --400,000 personas fueron la que asistieron"
    in which "la que" implies the manifestacion?
     
  28. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    No.
     
  29. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Hi All,

    How to translate the below sentence in English? I am still feeling quite odd for it.

    -400,000 personas
    fueron las que asistieron.



    By the way,

    -Tú fuiste el que me lo dijo.
    -Aquéllos fueron los que mejor lo comprendieron.

    What does it mean in English?
     
  30. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    Significa '400.000 personas asistieron', pero con un agregado algo enfático. Es como una respuesta a una pregunta del tenor de '¿No asistió demasiada gente a la manifestación, no?' (O 'asistió poca gente a la...)

    Las otras cláusulas: Tú fuiste el que me lo dijo : You were the one who told me (you and not Pepita)
    Aquéllos fueron los que mejor lo comprendieron: They were the ones who understood it best (and not the other group of loafers sitting under a tree).
    There is some extra stress on the first pronoun.
     
  31. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Ya veo.
    Muchas gracias duvija!!
     
  32. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    Me alegro que te haya servido.
     
  33. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Hola mis amigos! (Es correcto decir así??) Cuánto tiempo!
    Estoy repasando este aporte y quiero hacer unas preguntas:
    En la siguiente oración
    ----400,000 personas fueron las que asistieron.

    1. "Las" se refiere a las personas?
    2. "Que" es una conjunción?
    3. Is this sentence with a positive emphasis tone (so many people) or negative tone (not that a lot of people)?

    Gracias!
     
  34. ACQM

    ACQM forera que modera

    Manresa (Barcelona)
    Spain - Spanish
    1. Sí

    3. Es un tono neutro no es positivo ni negativo. Positivo podría ser "Hasta 400.000 personas fueron las que asistieron." y negativo "Sólo/A penas 400.000 personas fueron las que asistieron."
     
  35. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Muchas gracias ACQM.
    Por cierto,
    1. Es correcto decir "hola mis amigos"?
    2. "QUE" es una conjunción en la oración?
    3. Hay algunas diferencias en tono o en cualquier significa entre "400,000 personas fueron las que asistieron" y "400, 000 personas la asistieron (a la manifestación)"?
     
  36. vertebrado Senior Member

    espanol (Espana)
    1.- NO. Lo correcto es: Hola amigos mios. Aunque lo habitual es "Hola amigos" o simplemente "Hola"
    2.- "Que" en esta oracion equivale al termino ingles "which" and "that" y se llama pronombre de relativo.
    3.- No hay diferencia en cuanto al numero de personas sino en cuanto a la percepcion del hablante con respecto a ese numero de personas.
     
  37. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Gracias!
    No lo entiendo. Podría explicar más?
     
  38. vertebrado Senior Member

    espanol (Espana)
    Perhaps you dont understand my explanation because I didnt understand your question. Could you phrase your question again without typos or in English?
     
  39. ACQM

    ACQM forera que modera

    Manresa (Barcelona)
    Spain - Spanish
    Not much. But the second one is odd to me, it's not common at all in Spain, at least.
     
  40. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Sorry!
    I don't know the differences between the mentioned two sentence in their:
    a. Emphasis Tones
    b. Difference in meaning, if any.
    Thanks!
     
  41. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Hi ACQM, do you mean the second one is correct in grammar but it's not the way the Spanish would say?
    Why?
     
  42. ACQM

    ACQM forera que modera

    Manresa (Barcelona)
    Spain - Spanish
    The second one is not correct, I've checked it. It is not correct because "assistir" in this meanning is not a transitive verb ("assistir" has other meanning when it is transitive) you can't say "asistieron la manifestación" but "asistieron a la manifestación" so "a la manifestación" is not the direct object and you can't make it become "la".


    "400.000 personas asistieron a la manifestación" or "400.000 personas asistieron a ella" or just "400.000 personas asistieron"
    but not "400.000 persones la asistieron" :cross:


    "fueron 400.000 personas las que asistieron" is completely different because "las que asistieron" refers to "400.000 personas".
     
  43. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Ya veo. Muchas gracias ACQM.
    Pero todavía no estoy muy claro que en qué situación decimos "400.000 personas asistieron" y en qué situación decimos "400.000 personas (fueron) las que asistieron"?
     
  44. ACQM

    ACQM forera que modera

    Manresa (Barcelona)
    Spain - Spanish
    Uff, depende. Es una cuestión de estilo y de énfasis. "400.000 personas asistieron a la manifestación" es una afirmación neutra, la puedes usar en general. "400.000 personas fueron las que asistieron a la manifestación" se usa como repuesta a una pregunta directa o a una cuestión que estaba en el aire, por ejemplo, si en las noticias llevan muchos días hablando de la convocatoria a una manifestación para el día 23, el día 23 todos ponemos las noticias esperando saber cuántas personas asistieron, aunque nadie le ha hecho la pregunta al presentador, es muy probable que empiece el programa diciendo "400.000 personas fueron las que (finalmente) asistieron a la manifestación. Esta cifra es menor que lo que se esperaba,...". O también se usa como aclaración, por ejemplo:
    -¿Estuviste viviendo en Londres 3 años?
    -No, 3 años fueron los que estuve viviendo en Inglaterra en total, 1 en Bath y 2 en Londres.
     
  45. Lamemoor Senior Member

    Perú
    Peru - Spanish
    Hola, la construcción de esta oración: "Había/Hay 430000 personas que asistieron (a la manifestación)" es incorrecta.

    "Asistieron 43, 000 personas", es suficiente. ¿por qué el había o el hay.

    No soy una experta pero estoy absolutamente segura que la construcción gramatical es incorrecta.

    L.
     
  46. cadenzar Senior Member

    Chinese
    Vaya... Parace hay diferentes puntos de vistos...

    Por cierto, feliz navidad a todos!!
     

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