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I am saved

Discussion in 'עברית (Hebrew)' started by anakallia, Feb 27, 2014.

  1. anakallia New Member

    english
    looking to do a tattoo of the phrase "I am Saved" or "saved", I'm proud to be saved and would like the correct hebrew letters.
     
  2. k8an Senior Member

    Melbourne, Australia.
    English - Australian
    In the religious sense? As in, saved by Jesus?
     
  3. anakallia New Member

    english
    yeah, i know that the jewish religion says the messiah hasn't come yet, and i've only found the translation of Savior. i really wanted to do it in Aramaic, but of course i had to pick a dead language lol, So hebrew is the closest and it has special meaning to me personally.
     
  4. InfatigableLearner

    InfatigableLearner Junior Member

    English
    Looking through Delitzsch's Hebrew New Testament for the use of "saved" there, it would seem that נושע (nosha') is what you're looking for. This assumes you are a guy. If a girl then נושעת (nosha'at).
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  5. anakallia New Member

    english
    cool. i've done some research as well, but idk how accurate the site is that i found. they're saying its Yasha found at biblestudy tools.com

    *side note, is it possible to make it a sentence? like "I am saved"
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  6. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    נושע?
    i think its a horrible use, and hebrew is not dead;
    נושעתי
    but if you want the hebrew way of saying this then it is more as enlightened
    הוארתי
     
  7. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    Are you sure that a tattoo in an unknown language is a good idea? You are likely to get shaved instead of saved for the rest of your life, or something like that.
     
  8. InfatigableLearner

    InfatigableLearner Junior Member

    English
    I think anakallia meant that Aramaic was dead, not Hebrew. Even so, anakallia is in error for Aramaic is not dead either:

    Modern Aramaic is spoken today as a first language by many scattered, predominantly small, and largely isolated communities of differing Christian, Jewish, and Mandean ethnic groups of West Asia—most numerously by the Assyrians in the form of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic and Chaldean Neo-Aramaic—that have all retained use of the once dominant lingua franca despite subsequent language shifts experienced throughout the Middle East.
    -Wikipedia

    Moving on, I am not sure whether your statement that “i think its a horrible use” is an objection made on religious or grammatical grounds. Passing over religious objections, which I see as unassailable opinion and ultimately irrelevant to a forum devoted to language, I will explain the reason for my suggestion. I note that the Christian New Testament, as translated into Hebrew by Delitzsch, uses ישע for the Christian’s idea of being “saved” as one can see in the following verse from their Bible:

    אֲבָל מַאֲמִינִים אֲנַחְנוּ כִּי בְחֶסֶד יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ אֲדֹנֵינוּ נִוָּשֵׁעַ

    “But we believe that by the kindness of our Lord, Jesus the Messiah, we will be saved”
    -Acts 15:11

    Here one can see that Delitzsch uses a Niphal imperfect 1st person plural of ישע in his translation. The translation of the same verse by the Bible Society in Israel likewise uses ישע:

    אַדְּרַבָּא, אֲנוּ מַאֲמִינִים שֶׁבְּחֶסֶד הָאָדוֹן יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ נוֹשַׁעְנוּ

    “On the contrary, we believe that by the kindness of the Lord, Jesus the Messiah, we have been saved”
    -Acts 15:11

    Here one can see that the Bible Society in Israel uses a Niphal perfect 1st person plural of ישע in its translation. It would seem, therefore, that the Christians use ישע to express their idea of being “saved”.

    Now anakallia asked how to say simply “saved,” which I assume is a past participle being used substantively, i.e. “one who is saved” or “a saved one”. This single word therefore would serve as a simple affirmation of anakallia’s presumed “saved” status as follows from his/her Christian beliefs. Now, unless I am mistaken, participles may be used substantively in Hebrew as well, e.g. וְתַחַת הֲרוּגִים יִפֹּלוּ “or fall in place of the slain ones” (Isaiah 10:4). Thus with the foregoing points in mind, I believe נוֹשָׁע (nosha', male) or נוֹשַׁעַת (nosha'at, female) most directly translate “saved” in the sense anakallia intends. I thus do not see that there are any grammatical reasons for objecting to my suggestion.

    Now your objection might not be so grammatical as it is interpretive. It could well be that נוֹשָׁע, lacking any context, might not readily be interpreted as a substantive participle. If so, then your suggestion of נוֹשַׁעְתִּי (nosha'ti) “I have been saved” may indeed be the better one. I wonder if even then questions would stop though, for I can imagine someone who doesn’t share anakallia’s Christian background thinking “were they saved from a fire? an earthquake? what?”

    InfatigableLearner
     
  9. anakallia New Member

    english

    Interesting. (I'm female btw)
    You have it right, the context I am looking for is "one who is saved", in the christian concept of Jesus having come to earth to die to forgive my sins. Therefore "saving" me. But obviously, context is always an issue. My concern is, will this make sense?
    If I just do the word "saved", does that make sense
    Would it be better to do a phrase like "I have been saved", "I am saved", "one who is saved", or even something like "Saved one".

    In other words If Someone who speaks Hebrew saw the tattoo, would they look at it and understand the meaning I am going for, or would they be confused as to it's meaning. I don't ask this because I plan on showing it to Jews. I just ask because I want accuracy.

    Now the other thing I'm not sure about, is that Jesus didn't speak Hebrew, he spoke Aramaic. With that in mind, would it even make sense to do the tattoo in Hebrew? From what I understand, Aramaic and Hebrew are similar, but they are still two separate languages. Even still, Aramaic isn't considered the language of Christianity, Latin is. Though because of the fact that Aramaic is spoken by so few people, It's hard to find resources. At any rate, I'm still interested in the Hebrew translation and perspective of this. Though if anyone could point me in the direction of finding out how to say/write this in Aramaic, that would be very helpful.
     
  10. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Looks like she does want it from a religious position, therefore I suggest what I perceive as the correct word for such view.

    To address the translation of the new testament into hebrew, try translating something in english to hebrew and back again on google translator - that is all im going to say about it.

    when wanting to tattoo yourself you dont want "simply", and from her post she wants it to be both grammatically and interpreted properly, which to all i addressed with my suggestions.
     
  11. anakallia New Member

    english
    ariel's right, I want it from a religious stand point. I'm not going to just slap any old tattoo to my skin unless it means something. I know that technology has come a long way, but i'd rather have people that have studied translations vs google translations, but thank you for the suggestion :)

    i've been looking around, but i'm not sure if the new testament has been translated into hebrew, also its not their belief, focusing on the old testament, that's why i'm finding it hard to find the correct meaning. So far i'm leaning to Infatible's idea

    once i have the official translation, the only thing will be to find the letters in a different font :p
     
  12. InfatigableLearner

    InfatigableLearner Junior Member

    English
    Hold up! arielpi's suggestion, נוֹשַׁעְתִּי (nosha'ti) “I have been saved”, is better than mine in terms of understanding. As arielpi states, direct translation is not always the best in terms of other people's understanding.
     
  13. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Biblical Hebrew tends to use stative verbs in place of adjectives/particples more often than Modern Hebrew does. Therefore I think that "נושעתי" is the most elegant, clearest, and most Biblical solution.
     
  14. anakallia New Member

    english
    awesome! i'm so excited, now just to pick a font. Thank you all for helping me out with the grammar, i don't

    mine to end up on that bad hebrew tats website lol,

    So i think i'm going to go with
    נוֹשַׁעְתִּי so it has some of that curvy flare to it.
     
  15. chefalu New Member

    London
    English
    May I suggest that you do a temporary tattoo--something that will last a while but not be there forever. See how you like it. Test the responses. You may not get the response you want. Modern Israelis and Hebrew speakers won't understand this word. Consider your motive and what you are really trying to do--it may lead you to a better choice.
     
  16. anakallia New Member

    english
    So far the only translation i get for נוֹשַׁעְתִּי is "been deliviered", but what chefalu said makes sense that its not modern. but i don't want "modern", i'm doing for traditional interpretation/translation

    my tattoo is scheduled for 2 1/2 weeks from now, so theres time to still perfect it.

    i have a book that has translations of redeem or redeemed, but not sure if its correct.

    one uses Ps. 49:15 and Kings 23:3
    the other uses Isa. 44:22

    both have different meanings, but he Psalms one is the one I love, I can't paste type hebrew with my computer though. i can try to find a site

     
  17. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Note that Jewish and Christian verse numberings are sometimes different in places. For example, that Psalms reference is 49:16 in the Jewish numbering; and the verb used there is פדה. I can't find the Kings reference at all, is it the first or second book of Kings? The Isaiah reference uses the verb גאל.

    Both פדה and גאל are transitive, but both have passive participles and both also exist in the nif'al passive. So you could do something like: "אֲנִי פְּדוּיָה" or "אֲנִי גְּאוּלָה".

    EDIT:
    Or you could do something like "גְּאָלַנִי", meaning "he redeemed/freed/emancipated me".
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  18. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    It doesnt work with what she wants... my suggestion would be the best so far with all the suggestions given (not because i said it, it simply is)
    besides, it should be נגאלתי which is very risky because it could sound like another word נגעלתי which means "i was disgusted (by something/one)"
     
  19. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    I'm trying to give her more options not less. The reason for גאלני is that that is essentially how it is used in Isaiah (גְּאַלְתִּיךָ). How can you say it doesn't work with what she wants if you are not her?

    By the way here are some more suggestions for פדה, based on the fact that the word נפש (soul) is commonly used along with it in the Bible:
    נַפְשִׁי פְּדוּיָה (= "my soul is redeemed/ransomed")
    פָּדָה (אֶת־) נַפְשִׁי (= "he redeemed/ransomed my soul", the word את, which would be required in modern Hebrew, seems to be optional in the Bible)
    ויפד (אֶת־) נַפְשִׁי (= "and he redeemed/ransomed my soul", this is the more grammatically Biblical way of saying it, but I am not sure whether the vowels should be וַיִּפֶד, וַיֵּפֶד, or וַיֵּפְדְּ, since the Bible is inconsistent with this form of verbs whose last root letter is ה)
     
  20. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Giving more options doesnt mean giving correct options. using things in a way and not another because thats how it was used in some place doesnt mean its correct for another place.
    I cant tell her what works and what doesnt, im only saying what i think is correct and best for what she wants; im not going to argue with you about this because obviously we have different opinions about which words should be used and which avoided.
     
  21. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Just to be clear, I did not say anywhere which words "should" be used and which ones "shouldn't". She wants it to sound Biblical, the way I understand it, so I'm giving her suggestions based on Biblical usage (from passages that she herself provided). If you want to disagree with some of them, you need to say a bit more than just "It doesn't work with what she wants". If you explain why you think so, she can decide for herself whether it is what she wants or not.
     
  22. anakallia New Member

    english
    both are more along the lines of what i'm looking for, and understanding is what i'm going for, saying that i'm saved by God, that my soul is redeemed or saved. plus if someone were to ask what i mean by נוֹשַׁעְתִּי i can always explain it.
     
  23. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    I think both of those options are equal in terms of understanding (even without vowels), assuming the person knows the words נושע and פדה. I have to confess though, that the word פדויה doesn't sound very elegant to my ears (purely in terms of literal sound).

    Maybe you would like a direct quotation from Psalms 55:19 (or 55:18): פָּדָה בְשָׁלוֹם נַפְשִׁי (KJV: "He hath delivered my soul in peace"), which is also clearly understandable even without the vowels if you know the word פדה.

    But if you like conciseness (or perhaps less pain during the tattooing process), then you should go with נושעתי.

    To me both of these options would have been very tempting (if I were a Christian who wanted this kind of a tattoo).
     
  24. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    I dont really like the root פדה here, the reason is that it is related to getting something from negotiation:
    1. getting kidnapped people back is used with this root.
    2. you use this root when you use a cheque
    3. when you get payment/salary

    so if you use it that way you really mean you were saved indeed, but more due to being payed for and not as redeemed.
     
  25. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    The funny thing is, in English "redeem" is also used for checks, lottery tickets, and other such things.

    EDIT:
    Also, according to Christianity, Jesus did pay to save everyone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  26. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    hilarious; im not a native english so i didnt know that, ill revert to saved.
     
  27. anakallia New Member

    english
    just so i'm keeping up lol, נוֹשַׁעְתִּי = been delivered?
    (i do like the short spelling of it, especially since it will be going on my wrist area)
    the Ps.
    55:18 is beautiful, but wouldn't fit length wise.
     
  28. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Been saved (from deep places)
     
  29. Codinome Shlomo Senior Member

    Portuguese (Brazil)
    Since you are doing this for religious reasons, consider reading Leviticus 19:28, lest you regret later:
    "You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD."
     
  30. refiZ Junior Member

    English, Spanish (Peru)
    Also, you should keep in mind that Modern Hebrew does not use 'Hebrew letters', in fact, it uses letters from Aramaic, when Imperial Aramaic was the language of the day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet). However, the Aramaic speakers soon developed a different way of writing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_alphabet) that was used by the Assyrians/Aramaic-speaking Christians and is still used by Assyrian populations [who are spread in California, Chicago, Scandinavia after leaving Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Syria.]

    Since there is a deep tradition of Aramaic Christianity, there will be better and more suitable translations. There are many Christians who can help you accurately write as Jesus would have spoken. Also, the script is nice! That is what I would recommend...

    Hebrew was originally written with letters that were close to pictograms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet), where the letters had a shape that was connected to something physical.

    I don't mean to give a lecture, but if I wanted to put something permanently on my body, I would want to know the whole story.
     
  31. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Don't be fooled into thinking they still speak the way Jesus did. Their language has changed a lot over time (and much more than Hebrew has, since it was a living language the entire time) even if it is a direct descendant of the Aramaic of Jesus. And the Syriac script did not develop until after Jesus as well. Also don't forget that even Jesus regarded Hebrew, not Aramaic, as the holy language.
     
  32. refiZ Junior Member

    English, Spanish (Peru)
    Interesting. I did not know. I just met some when I was living in California, and they were very religious and proud of their language. I know little about Christianity/Jesus so I might not be the best source for this.
     
  33. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Actually, I may have been wrong about the Syriac script developing after Jesus. Its Wikipedia article says its earliest use is 200 BC, although the only reference says it was used from the 1st century AD onwards. But either way, it was never used by the Jews and therefore not by Jesus either. The writing the Jews used at that time was the same as that used in the Dead Sea Scrolls (here's a closeup). The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet that you mentioned was still occasionally used at the time, especially in writing the tetragrammaton, but also rarely in writing books of Torah, as seen in the Paleo-Leviticus scroll (one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, here's a closeup).
     
  34. refiZ Junior Member

    English, Spanish (Peru)
    Thanks for the information!

    I'm just hoping to help a fellow human who is making a lifetime mark on themselves, and don't want them to feel duped if they learn something about the script evolution later. If the information about the different scripts helps them make a decision that they are happier with, then I am happy.

    [I also do calligraphy with the Syriac script so just tend to think it is interesting.]
     
  35. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Just to be clear, I was not criticizing you, but just adding more information to help the same fellow human.
     
  36. refiZ Junior Member

    English, Spanish (Peru)
    No problem! I was trying to word my post in a way that didn't make me seem defensive! But, that goes to show that one does not always communicate 100% of their intentions perfectly in their native language.
     
  37. anakallia New Member

    english
    would גְאוּלָה or יְשׁוּעָה or יְשׁוּעָה work? use salvation or redemption, or maybe just יֵ֫שַׁע
    so far Ariel's suggestion still sticks, but like Ref said it will be permanent, so yea i want it to be absolutely correct beforehand.
     
  38. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    I recommend you go look at the lists of how each of these roots are used in the Bible:
    - ישע
    - גאל
    - פדה

    Unfortunately the lists are not organized grammatically, but you can still get a good idea of the meaning of each root to make sure it fits the way you want it to. With the root ישע, arielipi's suggestion is probably the best. But if you decide to go with one of the other roots, then we will have to decide which grammatical form fits best for it.
     
  39. anakallia New Member

    english
    יְשׁוּעָה or נוֹשַׁעְתִּי
    since they read right to left,...... the left one is from google translate, and i trust that as far as i can throw myself, and the other is the translation someone gave earlier in the post, ariel i believe, to the untrained eye (me) they almost look mirrored.
     
  40. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    I don't know what you mean by mirrored, but they are from the same root י-ש-ע (notice: ישועה and נושעתי; originally this root was ו-ש-ע, but the ו at the beginning of most words changed to י before the times of Biblical Hebrew, this is why ישועה has י, but נושעתי still has ו). The meanings of ישועה (the feminine singular of the passive participle of the pa'al binyan) and נושעתי (the first person past tense of the nif'al binyan, which is used as the passive of the pa'al binyan) are virtually identical, so the question is just which one is more commonly used and which one is more likely to be understood. I can't tell you how common they are in Modern Hebrew, but in Biblical Hebrew, נושעתי and its other forms are used 22 times, while ישועה and its other forms are not used even once. Additionally, ישועה is also a noun meaning "salvation", used 77 in the Bible; I don't know how much it is used in Modern Hebrew, but occurs in various places in the Jewish liturgy.
     
  41. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    ישועה is not a verb, its the shem pe'ula or something like that - noun.
     
  42. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    You are right. For some reason I thought that יָשַׁע was a word, but it doesn't seem to exist.
     
  43. anakallia New Member

    english
    So does ישועה have to have the pronunciation markings like Learner's to be understood?
     
  44. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    I dont understand your question here.
     
  45. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Unlike arielipi, I entirely understand your question. And the answer is it won't make a difference. Even if the verbal meaning I was referring to of ישועה did exist, it would have the same vowels and pronunciation as the noun. But as it turns out, the verbal meaning does not exist, and therefore you cannot use ישועה for the meaning you are looking for.
     
  46. anakallia New Member

    english
    נוֹשַׁעְתִּי the markings above and below, do they matter in the understanding? as appose to נושעתי
     
  47. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    People who know enough Hebrew will read it correctly without the vowel marks, since there is only one valid word with the spelling נושעתי. People who don't know Hebrew very well but know how to read it (as is the case with many American Jews) will find the markings helpful in pronouncing the word.
     
  48. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    To slightly contradict Drink, since its more biblical word jews will know it better, i personally think it'll be fine without as well as with (though many consider with markings to be disruptive after we learn to read without)
     
  49. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    You may have misunderstood what I meant by "American Jews". The typical American Jew is not very religious, but goes through Jewish education that involves learning to read Hebrew with vowels (for the purpose of prayer), but not to understand the words or grammar (or at least very minimally).
     
  50. anakallia New Member

    english
    The tattoo turned out beautifully, thank you all for helping me out. I ended up not doing the markings. I'll post a pic tmoro when the redness is down :)



    the complete

    1978745_10152274461459336_597856810_n.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014

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