I thank you for the sweets

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by jmt356, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. jmt356 Senior Member

    MSA: I thank you for the sweets

    I know some people have preferences as to how to say things, but I only want to know if any of these are wrong:
    اشْكُرُكَ على الحلاويات
    اشْكُرُكَ للحلاويات
    اشْكُرُكَ الحلاويات

    اشْكُرُلكَ على الحلاويات
    اشْكُرُلكَ للحلاويات
    اشْكُرُلكَ الحلاويات
  2. momai

    momai Senior Member

    Just the first one is correct .
    اشْكُرُكَ على الحلاويات
  3. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    But the spelling is not correct. Sweets is حَلْوَى . And if you want to use the form 7alawiyyaat, then it's written like this حلويات.
  4. jmt356 Senior Member

    My understanding is that حَلْوَى is the singular. I am trying to say “sweets” (plural). According to VerbAce Pro, the plural of حَلْوَى is حَلاوَى or حَلاوِيَّات.

    حُلْوِيَّات is also in the dictionary, but as “confectionary, confections.” I think حَلاوِيَّات, حَلاوَى and حُلْوِيَّات are all acceptable, but حُلْوِيَّات is most used in spoken language.

    My main concern though is that according to the Hans Wehr, the definition of “to thank” is:
    “to thank (ل or ه s.o., على or ل or هـ for s.th.)” (p. 563. of the 4th Ed.).
    So according to Hans Wehr, any of the 6 forms I provide above should be correct, because you can put ل before the person being thanks (but do not need to) and can put على or ل before the thing being thanks for (but do not need to).
  5. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Here's what I know:

    I've never seen حلاوى nor حلاويات before. If they're generated by a machine conjugator, then it's better to avoid them.
    To thank someone for something he gave you, you say: أشكرك على.
  6. jawad-dawdi Senior Member

    moroccan arabic
    أشكرك على الحلويّات (الحلويّات بدون ألف بعد اللام) .. والتراكيب الأخرى خاطئة
  7. jmt356 Senior Member

    What do we do with the ى if we add ك to حلوى or حلاوى? Does it become an ا, as in:
  8. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    If you add a letter at the end, it doesn't mean you need to add a letter at the beginning as well.
    So, حلوى doesn't becaome حلاوى+حرف just because we added that حرف.
  9. jmt356 Senior Member

    What does حلوى become if we add ك to the end? Does it become حلواك?
    What does حلاوى become if we add ك to the end? Does it become حلاواك?
  10. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    There is no حلاوى , and حلوى becomes حلواك.
  11. Arabic Guru

    Arabic Guru Senior Member

    The Occupied Holy Land!
    Arabic - العربية
    هناك حلاوة " بالطحينية " وهي بالتاء المربوطة
  12. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).

    لم نختلف. ولكن السائل مصمم على إضافة تلك الألف في حلوى/حلاوى رغم تكرار إخبارنا له أنها خطأ.

    Also الحلاوة الطحينية (بدون الباء) is particular kind of food, not "sweets" in general.
  13. akhooha Senior Member

    English - USA
    Just a friendly (and I hope helpful) observation: You have made a number of posts referring to information that you get from "VerbAce Pro" that turns out to be just plain incorrect. If I were you, I would rely on more standard and more reliable references such as Hans Wehr or Lane (both of which can be found here: http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=14,ll=38,...106,umr=26,ums=14,umj=34,ulq=247,uqa=17,uqq=2) or almaany.com (http://www.almaany.com/ for arabic-english or english-arabic) and (http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=arabic&lang_name=عربي&cat_group=1 for arabic-arabic).
  14. jmt356 Senior Member

    According to Verb-Ace Pro, Almaany and Hans Wehr 4th Ed. (p. 237), حَلاوَى is the جمع of حَلْوَى.

    I do not believe it is accurate to characterize VerbAce-Pro’s information as “plain incorrect.” While some native users on this forum have questioned some of the VerbAce-Pro’s definitions, many of these issues come down to subjective judgments. Even native speakers from different regions may disagree as to whether a particular term is accepted in modern “standard” Arabic, and even academically-accepted dictionaries disagree on some terms. Modern standard Arabic is largely about consensus, not black and white “right” and “wrong.”

    With that being said, I am not saying that VerbAce-Pro is without errors. I believe all dictionaries have errors. The benefit that it does have is its ease of use. It does not require scrolling through online images of the Hans Wehr or scrolling through the web for Almaany. It instantly brings up definitions with a right click—and it includes diacritic marks, parts of speech, verb forms and the vocalization that goes above the second consonant of form I verbs when conjugated in the imperfect.
  15. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Standard Arabic not being totally identical across over twenty countries does not mean we can write what we like, though.
    Dictionaries and common usage define language, not automated conjugators. Use this kind of software as a tool, not as a guide.
  16. dkarjala Senior Member

    English - America
    You're right and this is a great case in point.

    1) The word حلوى meaning 'a sweet fruit' or 'sweet food' should be pluralized in the same manner as فتوى, but that plural حلاوى has lost the struggle as the name for this very common and desired commodity to more retrievable analytical forms, which may or may not have existed side-by-side in a lot of dialects to begin with.

    2) The spelling حلوِيّات is a dialect pronunciation that has sneaked its way into standard. Even if we were to pluralize حلوى with ات, it would be a simple matter of adding the sound plural to the end, changing the ى to ي and moving on, leaving حَلوَيات. But again, even this form has lost out and this is why, as you say, native speakers aren't going to sit back and consider the theoretical forms: they know it's the right word for the job.

    In any case, it's not a reason in and of itself to discount a computerized inflection engine altogether - but one should certainly be wary.

    P.S. according to almaany.com, 3 dictionaries give only حلاوى and one other gives it alongside حلوَيات ! So much for 'reliable' sources. :)
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014
  17. jmt356 Senior Member

    VerbAce Pro is not an automated conjugator. It is an electronic dictionary that shows verbs in the perfect third person singular only, but also indicates the vocalization that goes above the second consonant of form I verbs in the imperfect. In this respect, it is like the Hans Wehr, but unlike the Hans Wehr, it brings up definitions instantly by right clicking any word.

    Perhaps we should limit critiquing VerbAce Pro on this thread to avoid having our posts deleted as off topic.
  18. Araby New Member

    اشْكُرُكَ على الحلاويات
    اشْكُرُلكَ الحلاويات​

    These are right
  19. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    متى في حياتك رأيت الحلويات مكتوبة بالألف؟
  20. Araby New Member

    Oh Sorry I mean !!! I meant this , I did not see the Alef !

    أشْكُرُكَ على الحلويات

    أشْكُرُلكَ الحلويات


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