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Icelandic: orðaröð með "samt"

Discussion in 'Nordic Languages' started by Gavril, Oct 28, 2013.

  1. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    Sæl,

    Í fyrri þræði leiðrétti NMMIG setningu mína svo:

    Þeir eru að bjóða húsið á 250.000 kr, en samt held ég ég held samt að við gætum samið um lægra verð.

    Af hverju kemur "samt" hér á eftir sögninni?

    Ég spýr því að það eru margar Google-niðurstöður fyrir samt held ég, með "samt" á undan sögninni -- hvað veldur annarri orðaröð, hvað hinni?

    Takk
     
  2. Silver_Biscuit

    Silver_Biscuit Senior Member

    Reykjavík
    English - UK
    OK I had a think about it and I think the word order is not wrong per se, but it changes what you are saying.

    Þeir eru að bjóða húsið á 250.000 kr (haha this is still funny :p) en samt held ég að við gætum samið um lægra verð.
    They are offering 250.000 kr on the house but all the same I think we can agree on a lower price (i.e. regardless of the fact stated in the first clause).

    Þeir eru að bjóða húsið á 250.000 kr en ég held samt að við gætum samið um lægra verð.
    They are offering 250.000 kr on the house; I think we can agree on a lower price though.

    You clearly meant the second one, so the correction is a good one.
     
  3. Donnerstag Senior Member

    Reykjavik, Iceland
    Icelandic
    Ég fellst á það að "Þeir eru að bjóða húsið á 250.000 kr, en ég held samt að við gætum samið um lægra verð" sé algengari setningaskipan, en ég sé ekki að það sé neitt að hinni. Hún er að mínu mati fullkomlega eðlileg íslenska líka.
     
  4. Silver_Biscuit

    Silver_Biscuit Senior Member

    Reykjavík
    English - UK
    To clarify, in the first sentence (pre-correction sentence), samt didn't really have anything to do with að halda I don't think... Maybe I'm overthinking it, though!
     
  5. Donnerstag Senior Member

    Reykjavik, Iceland
    Icelandic
    Já, þetta er rétt. Vel spottað :)
     
  6. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    Hi SB,

    I'm not disputing your translation above (or NMMIG's original correction), but don't both word-orders with samt have an implication of "regardless"? The difference seems to be in how strong the "regardless" is.

    Thanks SB and Donnerstag for your help.
     
  7. Silver_Biscuit

    Silver_Biscuit Senior Member

    Reykjavík
    English - UK
    Uuumm, I would not say it's really a difference in emphasis (and would also advise against focusing too much on the choice of words that I made in English to try and get across the semantic difference as I saw it). It's more just about the relationship between the clauses.

    The first one says: A is true, but that doesn't matter, I think B, as if your opinion B is not challenged by fact A.

    The second one says: A is true, however I think B, in which you are setting up your opinion B in opposition to A.

    The first is about dismissal (or disregarding, which is why I wrote regardless), the second is about disagreement (even though in this context you are not actually disagreeing with A where A is the fact that these people offered a certain amount on the house - you are rather implying disagreement with their decision, you think they could get it for lower).

    Edit: Maybe disagreement is not quite the right word... but I can't think of a better one, I hope you understand what I mean :) Like your opinion is interacting more with the first clause...

    Edit edit: Also I hasten to add that I'm only really talking about this context. Don't think I'm trying to make some sort of rule here. Different contexts may well work differently, although I'm confident that some will work the same way. As I've said before on here, I'm more of an "understanding what I'm reading/hearing" sort of person rather than a rules person so I'm really only describing how I understand these two sentences differently.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013
  8. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    But how are you not also doing this when you dismiss A?

    I'm not sure I understand -- do you mean that #2 (samt following the verb) concedes more ground to the other person than #1 (samt before the verb)? I.e., #2 allows that the other person could be partially right?

    I'm wondering now how much samt actually adds to the meaning of the original sentence -- how is en ég held samt different from simply en ég held?
     
  9. Silver_Biscuit

    Silver_Biscuit Senior Member

    Reykjavík
    English - UK
    No I'm not saying that. I especially made sure to mention that I wasn't trying to make any sort of rule! I mean that this is what effect moving samt around has in this sentence. It's not about conceding ground either... it's just about how you are situating your view in relation to the first part of the sentence. Just think about the difference between however and regardless. I assume as a native English speaker you have a good sense of how these words have different implications.

    En ég held samt sounds stronger to me than en ég held. That's a matter of emphasis.
     
  10. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    I didn't mean to imply that you were.

    If you say, A, but regardless B, maybe there tends to be an implication that you already held opinion B before hearing A, or that B was already seen as a strong possibility. The same sentence with however/though/etc. doesn't necessarily imply that -- if you say A; however, B, then maybe B only occurred to you after hearing A. Is this closer to what you meant in the last post?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013
  11. Silver_Biscuit

    Silver_Biscuit Senior Member

    Reykjavík
    English - UK
    OK cool. Yeah, sounds like you're understanding what I meant now, even though I wouldn't say it says all that much about when you thought of B. Like the second one means it is a response or engagement with the idea, and the first one is just dismissing it.
     
  12. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    I think this makes sense to me if, instead of "dismiss", we say "shelve" or "change the subject".

    E.g., it sounds a bit odd to say,

    They're offering the house for 300 thousand kr, but regardless, I think we can negotiate a better price

    because regardless suggests that you're shifting the focus away from whatever they are offering, but then you continue discussing just that.

    Now are we in agreement? :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013
  13. Silver_Biscuit

    Silver_Biscuit Senior Member

    Reykjavík
    English - UK
    Eh no, it really is dismiss.

    You have identified the reason the correction happened in the first place. It does indeed sound a bit odd.
     
  14. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    dismiss suggests that one is completely abandoning something, whereas shelve or a similar verb makes it clear(er) that you may return to that something later, maybe as soon as the next sentence.
     
  15. Silver_Biscuit

    Silver_Biscuit Senior Member

    Reykjavík
    English - UK
    What are you getting at? That your original sentence should not have been corrected? I know what dismiss means (and it's not synonymous with abandon, by the by) and I can assure you that is precisely what I meant to say. You don't believe me, got it, take whatever you want away from this thread, I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall here so I'm out.
     
  16. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    The Icelandic sentence that I started this thread about? No, the only thing I questioned is one (English) word used in the explanation of why it was corrected.

    Thanks for sharing your Icelandic knowledge on this thread.
     
  17. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    Also, I didn't mean to say dismiss was incorrect in this context -- I'm sorry if that's how I came off --, just that the (seemingly) intended meaning was clearer to me if certain other words/phrases were used in its place.
     

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