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If I hadn’t, I woudn’t (Tercer condicional)

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by suchard, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    Hola,estoy aprendiendo los condicionales en inglés , tengo problemas con el tercero,ya que según mi libro de gramática, este se refiere a situaciones hipotéticas del pasado. Pero si una acción de pasado, tiene resultado en el presente? Ejemplo
    If I hadn’t gone to Brazil, I woudn’t have this nice tan now
    Es correcta la segunda parte?? Saludos a todos y gracias de ante mano
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  2. chamyto

    chamyto Senior Member

    Burgos, Spain
    Spanish
    Entiendo a qué te refieres (negación expletiva) , pero no sé si puede haber ambas partes negativas :confused: en inglés. Porque lo que quieres expresar es "como sí fui a Brasil, pude tener este bronceado tan estupendo" . ¿Estoy en lo cierto?
     
  3. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    Hola, la oración seria así , Si no hubiera ido a Brasil,no tendría este bonito bronceado (hoy)
     
  4. chamyto

    chamyto Senior Member

    Burgos, Spain
    Spanish
    Lo sé. Creo que es igual que en español en este caso; no obstante, espera más respuestas.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  5. juan082937 Senior Member

    español

    Si no hubiera ido a Brasil , yo no tendría este bronceado= two negatives= positives
     
  6. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    Creo que tu pregunta es si la frase en inglés es correcta. Sí, lo es. :)
     
  7. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    Gracias, micafe... pero la dudas pasa por el siguiente punto,¿Porqué los líbros de gramática no lo aclaran? según estos solo puede ser para situaciones hipoteticas del pasado..
     
  8. kayokid

    kayokid Senior Member

    Chicago
    English, USA
    As micafe has said, the English sentence is correct. Just note a very minor spelling mistake: wouldn't.

    Language/grammar books are full of generalities and mistakes. They give an overview of a language, at best. The details you have to learn by trial and error -- or a site like this one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  9. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    Claro, es una situación hipotética porque sí estuviste en Brasil.
     
  10. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    no, hagamos de cuenta que realmente fuí, y me estuviese lamentando el caso de no haber ido... es algo que se me presentó como duda mirando los ejemplos de los libros, pero no encontre otro tiempo verbal mas que diera sentido
     
  11. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    Thanks and you're right. I hadn't seen it, ( would)
     
  12. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    Cuando dices "si no hubiera ido al Brasil" estás diciendo que sí fuiste entonces la frase negativa es hipotética porque está diciendo algo que no sucedió.
     
  13. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    micafe, tenes razón. Cuando digo si no hubiera ido, esa es la parte hipotetica
     
  14. RicardoElAbogado Senior Member

    SF Bay Area, California
    American English
    This is one area where the Spanish construction and the English construction are typically exactly alike. Just keep in mind that "had not [done something]" establishes a counterfactual (or hypothetical) situation. It's pretty much a literal translation of "Si no hubiera [hecho algo]." The other clause, just as in Spanish, must be conditional. The "no tendría" is a literal translation of "woiuld not have." So I don't see where you are having trouble.

    The negations are irelevant to choice of tense. The meaning changes, but not the tenses. Maybe that's why the grammar book you refer to doesn't discuss the negation element.

    If I had gone to Brazil, I would have a nice tan now.
    If I hadn't gone to Brazil, I wouldn't have a nice tan now.

    Same tenses of the verbs (with and without negation).
     
  15. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    RICARDOELABOGADO: Hola ... el tercer condicional es segun mi libro: IF + PAST PERF+ CONDICONAL PERFECTO , mientras que yo use. IF+PAST PERF+ COND. SIMPLE
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  16. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    Suchard, Creo que ya entendí cuál es tu duda.

    En la mayoría de los casos, cuando se habla del 'tercer condicional', se dice que la oración principal se forma de un modal (usualmente would) + have + participio pasado:

    If you had told me about your problem, I would have helped you.

    En tu ejemplo esto no se da porque la oración principal solo usa would + verbo y por eso tal vez tu confusión.
    If you had told me about your problem, you would feel better now.

    Esta oración también es correcta. No necesariamente se usa would + have + PP.

    En oraciones en el tercer condicional hay varias combinaciones, puede ser que la frase con 'if' sea afirmativa y la oración principal negativa:

    If you had told me about your problem, you wouldn't have felt so bad.

    La frase con 'if' puede ser negativa y la oración principal afirmativa:

    If you hadn't told me about your problem you would be feeling bad now.

    Como ves, la oración principal puede variar en muchas formas. Además no necesita ser sólo con "would". Puede ser con otros modales como "could" y "might":

    If you had told me about your problem, I could have helped you.

    Espero haber ayudado y no haberte confundido más-- :)

    *No entiendo tu comentario a Ricardo sobre tu frase.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  17. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    Gracias por tu ayuda, es exactamente lo que explicaba a ricardoelabogado... ahora, tengo que buscar casos en que se pueda omitir el if, creo que se cambiaba a forma de pregunta pero no recuerdo, y no aparece en ningun libro...:(
     
  18. kayokid

    kayokid Senior Member

    Chicago
    English, USA
    Is this is what you are asking about:

    If I hadn't gone to Brazil, I wouldn't have this nice tan now.
    Had I not gone to Brazil, I wouldn't have this nice tan now.

    The structure with 'if' is much more common in AmE in my opinion.
     
  19. inib

    inib Senior Member

    La Rioja, Spain
    British English
    Suchard, tu traducción era buena desde el principio. La oración en cuestión es una "mixed conditional". Si consultas este término, verás que hay varios tipos. En tu caso, es una mezcla de los tipos 3 (en la oración subordinada - la que empieza por "if") y 2 (en la principal).
    Kayokid te ha dado una buena opción para expresar la idea sin emplear "if":
     
  20. RicardoElAbogado Senior Member

    SF Bay Area, California
    American English
    What is tercer condicional​?
     
  21. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    KAYOKID,Gracias, es exactamente a lo que me referia. ahara necesito saber para los demas condiconales.
    pero una ultima pregunta.* Had I not gone to Brazil, I wouldn't have this nice tan now. puede ser tambien asi? Hadn't I gone to brazil....?
     
  22. kayokid

    kayokid Senior Member

    Chicago
    English, USA
    Hello Suchard,

    "Hadn't I gone to Brazil..." sounds incorrect to my ear in this context. I would never say it.

    (I can picture a totally different situation where 'Hadn't I...' could be possible but it sounds stilted in AmE, at least, and there are much easier ways and much more common ways to express the same thought.)
     
  23. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    No. Cuando el verbo va en frente para poder omitir "if" o "whether", debe de ser a solas, y este verbo casi siempre es had, were, be, o should.
     
  24. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    ya se como omitir el if en el tercer cond. ahora con el 0 ,1 y 2 ?? algun link donde aparezca esto??? gracias de antemano y gracias por la ayuda de todos!!!
     
  25. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    Anteriormente se anteponían muchos más verbos para omitir if o whether, y creo que be ... por "whether ... be" sólo se usa en poemas, refranes, e historias ancianas como "Jack and the Beanstalk", en la que un gigante caníbal dice:

    Be he alive or be he dead, I'll grind his bones to make my bread.
    = "Whether he is alive or whether he is dead, ...."
    = "Sea vivo o sea muerto, ...."
    = "No importa si es vivo o muerto, ...."

    Had puede ponerse en frente si significa "hubiese", y aveces con otras acepciones así como:

    Had I to do it over again, .... = "If I had to do it over again, ...."
    Had I but to say the word to get whatever I wish for, .... = "If I had but to say the word to get whatever I wish for, ...."
    Had he yet to finish it, .... = "If he had yet to finish it, ...." = "If it were true that he has yet to finish it, ...."
    Had I more money, .... = "If I had more money, ...."

    Were puede anteponerse cuando es subjuntivo:

    Were I you, .... = "If I were you, ...."
    Were that to happen, .... = "If that were to happen, ...." (futuro hipotético)

    Y should puede anteponerse cuando significa "were ... to" (futuro hipotético):

    Should that happen, .... = "If that should happen, ...." = "If that were to happen, ...."
     
  26. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    muchas gracias, me es muy útil su ayuda,
     
  27. Wandering JJ

    Wandering JJ Senior Member

    England
    British English
    Hi Suchard:

    We were taught exactly the same for Spanish - a balanced sentence like: Si (yo) no hubiera tenido tanto dinero, no me hubiese/habría comprado un coche tan grande. From what I read in this thread, the following would also be acceptable: Si no hubiera tenido tanto dinero, no tendría un coche tan grande. Is that OK in Spanish? Perhaps the underlying structure of your original is: If I hadn't gone to Brazil, I wouldn't have got/attained/developed this nice tan.

    Interesting question!
     
  28. inib

    inib Senior Member

    La Rioja, Spain
    British English
    Yes, JJ, mixed conditionals also exist in Spanish. If an action in the past brings about consequences in the present, there's nothing wrong with saying: Si hubiera escuchado a mi padre (hace años), no estaría en apuros ahora.
     
  29. Wandering JJ

    Wandering JJ Senior Member

    England
    British English
    Thank you for the confirmation, Inib.
     
  30. juan082937 Senior Member

    español
    (Protasis) if clause Past perfect+(Apodosis) would have +pp. type 3 conditional
     
  31. suchard

    suchard Junior Member

    argentina
    español
    las oraciones estan bien, pero las encuentro un poco raras y no se que es, las analizare...
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  32. srb62 Senior Member

    Scotland
    British English
    I try to think of it as a third conditional, but one that continues to the present - the effect of doing/not doing something was felt in the past but this effect continues to the present.

    You could also think of it as almost 'assuming' but not saying the second part of the third conditional:

    If I hadn't gone to Brazil, I wouldn't have got this tan/I wouldn't have ended up with this tan.
    If I'd listened to my teachers, I wouldn't have ended up doing this poorly-paid job.
     

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