If you will go, you shall.

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by wolfbm1, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Witam.

    Zastanawiam się jak przetłumaczyć zdanie: If you will go, you shall.
    Jeśli pójdziesz, to ?

    Kontekst - zdania przykladowe napisane przez owlmana:
    If you could go, then you would.
    If you will go, then you shall.
    If you may go, then I'll pick you up at eight tonight.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  2. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British

    If you could go, then you would. This is fine, "then" is optional.
    If you may go, then I'll pick you up at eight tonight. This doesn't look right.
    More likely to hear/read something like... If you can go, then I could pick you up at eight tonight. It is a conditional sentence after all.

    If you will go, than you shall.
    "will' and "shall" have a similar meaning and I think in your sententence they are quite interchangeable, so to me the sentence doesn't mean much.
    I believe that there is a fair bit of disagreement between grammarians on the precise difference in meaning between the two. For the general English speaking public therefore, as you might expect, the distinction is even more vague.
    In my understanding shall carries a little more force, eg a mother might say to a naughty child, "You shall do as you are told!"
    The good news that "shall" is unfashionable these days and rarely heard and I would suggest probably best avoided unless you are studying older English texts?

    But will be interested to hear other views on this....
     
  3. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    1. If you could go, then you would. -- Jeśli/Kiedy mogłeś (iść/pójść), to chodziłeś/szedłeś.
    2. If you will go, then you shall. -- Jeśli chcesz iść, to pójdziesz.
    3. If you may go, then I'll pick you up at eight tonight. -- Jeśli możesz iść, to przyjadę po Ciebie o ósmej (wieczorem).
    W zdaniu, o które pytasz, "will" traci już swoją modalność, a widać w nim bardziej jego pierwotne znaczenie (chęć), podczas gdy "shall" wskazuje na obietnicę i/lub determinację ze strony osoby mówiącej.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  4. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Dziękuję Thomas.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  5. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Entangledbank told me it is a rare construction and that we can see the original difference between will and shall, while will denotes determination.

    I concluded that: If you will go, then you shall. = if you are determined to go (condition), you will ensure it is done (result). -- Jeśli (bardzo) chcesz iść, to pójdziesz.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  6. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I generally agree that 'shall' isn't used in common parlance that much with the meaning discussed in this thread*. However, I'd say it is fairly common when used in questions such as 'Shall we go?'.

    *Not rarely have I seen it used like that in legal documents, though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  7. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Shall is only really used in legal language, especially contracts, and that not all, in AE, unless for some stylistic purposes; Shall we? for example -- if suggesting something to someone. (some people speak like that, but it is not really common). I am not sure how it is used in BE these days. It was often used instead of will in the past. I don't really have that much contact with British English these days.
     
  8. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Your point of view is interesting because Americans seem to have preserved "older" English, e.g. you use the subjunctive (that she not do) more often than the British. In Poland, the coursebooks written by British authors are used most often.
     
  9. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Nobody uses shall, in contexts other than legal, and, as I said, specially stylized speech. (in AE). They used to. The famous song starts "We shall overcome", but not anymore, in everyday speech, or even in fore formal speech, except legal documents.
     
  10. Roy776

    Roy776 Senior Member

    Germany
    German & AmE
    Don't forget that there's also the verb 'to will' (chcieć). If we take this more literally, I understand it as "If you want to go, then you shall." Here, I also take 'shall' not to mean the future tense, but rather a little less strong a version of 'must'.
     
  11. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Hi Roy,
    Interesting comment.
    The verb "to will" is archaic and rarely used in English these days apart from it's important function of expressing the future tense of a verb. In this role I guess it would be described as an auxiliary verb, like to have, to be and to be able.
    I have traveled
    I was running
    I can swim etc

    In my understanding "chcieć" is simply translated as "to want",i.e. have a need or desire.

    Thomas made the same incorrect (IMHO) connection when he wrote;
    If you will go, th
    en you shall. -- Jeśli chcesz iść, to pójdziesz.
    I think this should be translated as If you want to go then you will (or "shall" if you must)

    Really the sentence "If you will go, you shall" makes no sense at all.
    It's equivalent to saying "if you will go, you will (go)".

    Cheers
    Phil
     
  12. jarabina Senior Member

    English - Scotland
    I realise that this forum is really for discussing Polish, but since British English is what is generally taught in Poland, I thought it might be wise to confirm that will/shall distinctions still exist in BE and that the verb 'to will' is not entirely archaic but still used.

    I'm really surprised to hear that 'to will' is archaic in Tasmania. Would you really not say: 'I willed her to stop'? Or, 'I sat there willing her to go away'? What would you say instead? I can't think of anything In BE that is really an equivalent.

    This is not true in British English. It makes perfect sense. Entangledbank is right.




    The use of will here relates to willpower (insistence) and shall is distinct from will in that it means it really will happen. The distinction exists because of the use of the modal 'will' for prediction. And this is not a prediction but a foregone conclusion. Shall is disappearing, but it's still common enough in certain situations.

    Cf: 'If you will do that then what do you expect?' (Will = insistence)
     
  13. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Yes, I agree. In British English it might be perfect. If you want to go, you should go (approximation). Or, you will go -- another possibility. It it will happen, depending on the context.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  14. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    As an side, I don't think that 'shall' in the sense of 'will' is much in vogue these days, so I'd actually advise against using it altogether. I, for one, could only use it jokingly or to mimic one's way of speaking, as in:

    A) I hope you'll keep up the good work!
    B) I shall!


    Is it even used in speech outside of formal contexts?
     
  15. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Hi Jarabina,
    No, I did not actually state that ' "to will" is archaic in Tasmania'. My experience of English is broader than you are implying and includes being educated in the British Grammar School system.
    To answer your question though I would say
    "I wanted her to go away" and these days I would expect to hear/read something like
    "I sat there wishing she would go away" but I agree that your similar statements are valid.

    However really the sentence "If you will go, you shall" makes no sense at all.
    It's equivalent to saying "if you will go, you will (go)"

    Could you explain what exactly the statement "if you will go, you will (go)" means to you? Perhaps put some context around it?

    I agree the example you give,'If you will do that then what do you expect?' is quite valid and this is a common enough usage.
    Cheers
    Phil
     
  16. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Yes, it would tend to sound a little pretentious in everyday parlance.
     
  17. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Hi Jarabina,
    No, I did not state that " 'to will' is archaic in Tasmania". My experience of English is broader than you are implying and includes being educated in the British Grammar School system.
    To answer your question though I would say
    "I wanted her to go away" and these days I would expect to hear/read something like
    "I sat there wishing she would go away" but I agree that your similar statements are valid.

    Really the sentence "If you will go, you shall" makes no sense at all.
    It's equivalent to saying "if you will go, you will (go)"

    Could you explain what exactly the statement "if you will go, you shall (go)" means to you? Perhaps put some context around it?

    I agree the example you give,'If you will do that then what do you expect?' is quite valid and this is a common enough usage.
    Cheers
    Phil
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  18. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Hi, Phil,

    How would you interpret 'will' and 'shall' in the following sentence:
     
  19. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Hi Thomas,
    The meaning is fairly clear I think so not much interpretation needed?
    It's obviously old English. Here again "shall" and "will" essentially mean the same thing.
    In contemporary English people would tend to use "will" rather than "shall" (and "won't" in place of "will not").
    Cheers
    Phil.
     
  20. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I would personally interpret it as: it will happen according to your wishes -- if you want to be free -- you will be freed, if you don't, you have the option of spending the rest of your life in prison.
     
  21. Roy776

    Roy776 Senior Member

    Germany
    German & AmE
    'Will' here definitely has the meaning of the future tense, as does shall. I see the difference in the certainity of the action. The sentences with 'will' are yet uncertain, while 'shall' says what will certainly happen if he were to say that he will fight. This distinction still exists in German.

    "Sir", sagte sie," werdet Ihr für meinen Herren kämpfen, Sir Damas? Falls Ihr es werdet, so sollt Ihr aus der Gefangenschaft entlassen werden. Werdet Ihr es nicht, so sollt Ihr hier sterben."

    I would actually be so bold as to call the sentence "If you will go, you shall" an archaic idiom. If it is your will to go, then you shall go.
     
  22. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Hi Roy,
    An idiom is an expression in common parlance which has a figurative meaning that is different to it's literal meaning.
    EG "Please don't pull my leg" meaning "don't tell me things that aren't true".
    Can you provide one or more actual source examples, from English literature, to support your assertion that
    "If you will go, you shall" is an archaic idiom?
    Prior to this thread, I've never come across this expression myself.
    Cheers
    Phil.
     
  23. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    I can't speak for Roy, but he most likely meant that 'if you will go, you shall' is something of an idiom, not one in the full sense of the word. :)
     
  24. Roy776

    Roy776 Senior Member

    Germany
    German & AmE
    Exactly that. I meant to compare it to an idiom, as idioms and sayings sometimes retain archaic features of a language. For example in the Polish saying "Mądrej głowie dość dwie słowie" where "dwie słowie" is the dual. Or the English expression "Holier than thou". Who today would still use thou? It was just a comparison, nothing more.

    By the way, take a look at the prescriptivist distinction of shall and will:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shall_and_will#The_prescriptivist_distinction

    I quote:
    And this is exactly how I understand it here.

    If you will go, you shall.
    (If it is your desire to go, then it is what you have to do/should do.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  25. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Can 'will' in 'If you will not, you shall die here.' really not be interpreted to have the shade of volition here? :confused:
    Perhaps, I'm shooting from the hip now, but
    If you do not, you shall die here.
    is different from:
    If you will not, you shall die here.
    in that the version with 'will' adds the volitional element.
    Compare:
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  26. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Of course it has the shade of volition -- If you want to live you live live, if you don't, you will die.
     
  27. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Hi Dreamlike,
    The expression 'if you will go, you shall' is in no way an idiom. .
    It is actually more like a tautology. This conditional statement lacks meaning because the same verb is repeated.
    Idiom's are part of the language and are generally well known and well understood by speakers of the language.
    This expression satisfies neither of these criteria.
    Cheers
    Phil.
     
  28. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Hi Roy,
    See my reply to Dreamlike above.
    Cheers
    P.
     
  29. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Hi Thomas,
    I think it might be worth clarifying the two statements above as there is no context around them which allows some ambiguity.
    In the 1st there is an implied verb but we don't know what it is, eg If you do not surrender, you shall die here
    This is fine if the context makes it clear what the missing verb is.
    The same thing goes for the 2nd conditional statement.
    It would be easier to comment if there was a bit of context.
    Cheers
    Phil.
     

Share This Page