In order that/to/for

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by Tadeo, Mar 21, 2007.

  1. Tadeo Senior Member

    Español (México)
    Hi!

    I have been having some troubles with the expression in order that, can it be followed by any of these (to/for/that)?

    I mean, is the meaning of the following sentences similar? Are they correct?

    In order to buy a car he needs to save money.
    In order that he can buy a car you need to save money.
    In order for him to buy a car, he needs to save money.

    I think the hardest one is In order that
    When do you use it?
    With what kind of structure? Is it always followed by the subject?
    In order that you, people, he ?

    By the way does it always take subjunctive?

    In order that you be happy
    In order that you are happy

    In order that he buys a car
    In order that he buy a car

    Are those srtuctures correct? Which ones?

    Thank you.
     
  2. Bocha

    Bocha Senior Member

    Argentina
    castellano
    In order to buy a car he needs to save money.
    In order that he can buy a car he needs to save money.
    (In order) for him to buy a car, he needs to save money.

    in order that (or so that, so as that) introduces a clause so you need a subject.


    By the way does it always take subjunctive?

    In order that you be happy:confused:
    In order that you should be happy:tick:
    In order that you are happy:tick:

    In order that he buys a car:tick: (but we might need a whole sentence to be sure)
    In order that he should buy a car:tick:
    In order that he buy a car:confused:
     
  3. AlbertoG Junior Member

    UK - English
    I've never heard "in order that". "In order to (verb)" and "In order for (subj.) to (verb)" are much more common. "In order that" sounds odd, but is technically correct. You would only use it in very formal cases:

    "In order that you may pass the exam..." = "So that you may pass the exam".

    "In order that" sounds weird. On the other hand, you see "in order for you to pass" and "in order to pass" all the time.

    "Para (hacer algo)": In order to (do something)
    "Para que (él haga algo)": In order for (him to do something)

    Alberto
     
  4. neal41 Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA, English
     
  5. neal41 Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA, English
    If you change 'you' need' to 'he needs', then all 3 have essentially the same meaning. 'Can' is a modal verb and has no subjunctive form. I prefer

    In order that he be able to buy a car, he needs to save money.:tick:

    'In order that' has the same meaning as 'para que' and like 'para que' is followed by the subjunctive.
     
  6. Ivy29 Senior Member

    MEDELLÍN
    COLOMBIA-Español
    These are adverbial clauses of PURPOSE :

    1- In order +to-infinitive ( he took the course in order to get a better job or SO AS TO get a better job.
    IN SPOKEN English is more common to USE the TO-INFINITIVE instead of IN ORDER TO or so as to.
    He took the course to get a better job.
    2- To make the NEGATIVE with in order to or so as to, the negative (NOT) is put before the to-inginitive.
    The land was bought quickly so as not /in order NOT to delay the building work.
    IN ORDER THAT/SO THAT, is used to talk about a purpose also:
    She stayed late at night in order/so as to to complete the report;
    she stayed late at night in order that/so that she COULD complete the report.
    AFTER SO THAT/In order that ( you can use the simple present, will, would, can, could. :
    a) you should keep milk in a fridge so that it stays fresh.
    b) I wrote it in my diary so that I wouldn't forget.
    why don't you take a day off so that you can recover properly.
    advice is given so that students can choose the best courses.
    c) she hid the present so that the children wouldn't find it.
    d) we shall let you know the details soon in order /so that you can/may make your arrangements.
    e) did you give up your job so that you could take care of your mother.
    1) FOR+noun or to infinitive = PURPOSE OF AN ACTION
    I 'm saving for a new car / I'm saving to buy a new car.
    2) PURPOSE OF A THING. = for+-ing. This is good for getting rid of headaches.; we use a saw for cutting wood.
    3) TO TALK ABOUT THE USE a person makes of something = to-infinitive. She used a heavy book to keep the door open.
    after the verb USE we can use either FOR+-ing or to-Infinitive.
    For the scale to register correctly it has to be level.

    SO ...THAT is used as a cuase with a RESULT., that id often dropped or left out.
    the train was so slow ( that) I was 2 hours late.
    So... that at the beginning of a sentence for EMPHASIS.
    so slow was the train that I was lamost two hours late..
    Sometimes we can use so... as+to-infinitive instead of so.. that.

    It was so unusual as to seem almost a joke. / ...so unusual that it seemed almost a joke.

    Ivy29
     
  7. AlbertoG Junior Member

    UK - English
    According to the BBC:
    • In order that you may pass the exam, we recommend you read through all your notes. (Very formal.)
    Here's the link:
    bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv146.shtml

    "In order that" sounds odd to me. On the other hand, I hear "in order for (him to do something)" almost every day.


    According to The Columbia Guide to Standard English:
    In American English, it is Standard to follow in order that with may, might, can, would, or any other auxiliary that fits the sense intended: In order that we can have enough time, we ought to leave by noon.




    A note about English subjunctive:

    In most cases, the Spanish subjunctive for wishes (quiero que, deseo que, necesito que) is expressed in English using "(for) subject infinitive":

    I need (for) you to go to the store.
    I want (for) him to be happy.

    For orders and suggestions, you hear the English subjunctive more:

    I mandate/require/ask that you be there at nine o'clock.
    (also: I mandate/require/ask you to be there at nine).
    I suggest that you be there at nine. (The only way to say it, I think).

    "So that" is never followed by subjunctive.
    "So that I am ready..." not "so that I be ready..."
     
  8. neal41 Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA, English
    Quantitatively, a search in Google yields the following number of hits:

    in order for him to be --- 38 600
    in order that he be --- 651
    in order that he may be --- 35 700
    in order that he might be --- 42 700

    in order that he can --- 20 700
    in order that he be able --- 113
    in order that he may be able --- 655
    in order that he might be able --- 537
    in order for him to be able --- 9650
    in order that he should be able --- 1650

    Obviously I have to retract what I said previously about 'should', although I would never use the last construction.

    What you say about 'mandate/require/ask' and 'suggest' is correct.
     
  9. Ivy29 Senior Member

    MEDELLÍN
    COLOMBIA-Español
     
  10. helen80 Junior Member

    Spanish; Spain
    alguien podría explicarme la versión negativa de estas dos expresiones??

    gracias!!!
     
  11. Tadeo Senior Member

    Español (México)
    Hi Helen! I see that no one has answered you so far, maybe cause this is an old post. I'm not a native but among all previous answers I found this:

    2- To make the NEGATIVE with in order to or so as to, the negative (NOT) is put before the to-inginitive.
    The land was bought quickly so as not /in order NOT to delay the building work.


    I hope it helps at leat a little, if not, feel free to use this post to keep asking
     
  12. Tadeo Senior Member

    Español (México)
    Sorry to insist, but once I'm here, what was the general agreement, is In order that...followed by subjunctive or a modal?

    In order that he be happy
    In order that he is happy
    In order that he can be happy

    Thanks.
     
  13. helen80 Junior Member

    Spanish; Spain
    Sorry

    I hadnt seen you reply until today

    thanks for you answer.

    I assume you can finish the construction in order that with a modal (can / could...) or will / would + infinitive
    or even present simple or past tenses as I've heard in speech, but you wont find this last choice in many grammars

    I closed the door in order that he could /would sleep in calm
    I'm closing the door in order that he will sleep /sleeps in calm

    Hope it helps
     
  14. backapalanka New Member

    Split
    Croatian
    Hi everyone,

    I've noticed that no one has commented on the use of 'should' in adverbial clauses of purpose whose subject differs from the subject of the main clause. (or, perhaps I haven't read all the posts thoroughly enough)
    Anyway, since I am not a native, I am wondering whether this sentence is correct and what the alternatives are to it:

    Tests on the specimens have been performed so that the behaviour of their connections should be described.
    (I simplified this sentence, originally, it has more elements, but I am interested in the construction of clauses of purpose)

    If, the sentence is grammatically correct, is it possible to omit the modal and still have a valid and legitimate English sentence?

    Alternatively, if I want to use 'in order that' or 'in order for', how would I have to compose the elements?

    In order that the behaviour of their connections (should) be described, some tests have been performed on the specimens. (?)

    Thanks a lot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  15. neal41 Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA, English
     

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