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intell.i.gent ou inte.lli.gent?

Discussion in 'Português (Portuguese)' started by Ariel Knightly, Apr 14, 2011.

  1. Ariel Knightly

    Ariel Knightly Senior Member

    Rio de Janeiro
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Olá, pessoal. Estou estudando separação de sílabas em inglês e só agora me dei conta de uma deficiência básica nos meus conhecimentos de fonética. Como aqui parece haver muitos lingüistas, talvez vcs possam me ajudar.

    Deixando um pouco de lado a questão da escrita, como eu posso saber se uma consoante pertence à coda de uma determinada sílaba ou ao ataque da seguinte? Por exemplo, em intelligent, [l] é coda de [ɛ] ou ataque de [ɪ]?

    Fiquei com essa dúvida por causa de uma explicação que encontrei na gramática The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. Ela diz que a separação silábica é uma questão que varia de editora para editora, e que o inglês americano tende a favorecer "breaks at syllable boundaries (e.g. democ-racy) and BrE those at morphological and etymological boundaries (e.g. demo-cracy)". Eu sinceramente não dou a mínima para a etimologia de democracy, mas fiquei curioso para entender por que [k] foi considerado coda de [ɑ]. A minha tendência seria a de interpretar esse "cr" como um ataque duplo de "cra". Alguém sabe me explicar isso?
     
  2. GamblingCamel

    GamblingCamel Senior Member

    USA English CULTA + RUA
    Hi Ariel.
    I'm an American speaker. To be honest, I haven't thought about syllable separation since my end-of-year English spelling test in 6th Grade.

    All I can say is that I pronounce democracy as de mo cra cy (though if I listen carefully to myself out loud, I also hear a soft attachment of the c to the o).
    When I say de mo cra tic, the break between c and o is extremely obvious.

    if you want to post the question in the EN Only forum, please feel free to borrow the text below.

     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  3. Ariel Knightly

    Ariel Knightly Senior Member

    Rio de Janeiro
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Vou fazer o que disse. Muito obrigado! :)
     
  4. Istriano

    Istriano Senior Member

    -
    The Syllabification rules are overly complicated, and you're the safest with a decent dictionary: in·tel·li·gent.

    English Syllabification has nothing to do with the pronunciation.

    For example lawyer is pronounced ['loj - ɚ] (lawy [loj] rhymes with boy).
    and is never [ˈlɑ:jɚ] (except in some Southern accents) as the syllabification law·yer may indicate.

    In the Western US and Vermont (cot/caught merging regions):

    law [ˈlɑ: ] (it rhymes with shah, pa)
    law·yer ['loj · ɚ] (it rhymes with employer).
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  5. GamblingCamel

    GamblingCamel Senior Member

    USA English CULTA + RUA
    Ariel > There are already answers to the EN Only thread. So far, they're more or less in line with what I said.
     
  6. Ariel Knightly

    Ariel Knightly Senior Member

    Rio de Janeiro
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Gente, acho que eu não me expressei de forma clara. Minha pergunta, no final das contas, não era sobre separação de palavra, que em inglês parece que chamam de syllabication; a questão é que, ao estudar syllabication, acabei percebendo que nem sempre é muito simples determinar se uma consoante é coda de uma determinada sílaba ou ataque da sílaba seguinte. Quando digo "sílaba", estou falando de sons, e não de seja lá qual for a forma de se grafar essa sílaba. Entendem o que eu quero dizer? Independente de qual seja a forma convencional de se separar a palavra democracy, o que me intriga é o fato de o SOM [k] ser considerado coda da vogal que o antecede em vez de parte do ataque da vogal seguinte.
     
  7. GamblingCamel

    GamblingCamel Senior Member

    USA English CULTA + RUA
    Well, it has something to do with pronunciation. It's just that there are so many darn different ways to say things.

    For instance, I was reading your statement, "lawy [loj] rhymes with boy", and I thought to myself, "Dang it! G.C. That's not how you say it!"
    ... and then I read a few lines down, and I saw the exception for the South. Well, it happens that this camel is from the South, so that makes sense. :)

    This is probably a good time for me to ask a question that's been on my mind for a while.
    In the PT forum, I've seen references to O Acordo Ortográfico da Língua Portuguesa de 1990. Is there government legislation requiring standard spelling (and syllable separation) in PT language texts in both Portugal and Brazil?

    In the US, the "rules" may seem to be anarchic, because editing decisions are merely based on subjective tastes of commercial publishers. Of course, there are some styles that have become "semi-official" because they're commonly used in wide circulation newspapers and best selling books.
     
  8. GamblingCamel

    GamblingCamel Senior Member

    USA English CULTA + RUA
    I thought you were very clear, Ariel.
    I just deleted my post 4 because I wrote the reverse of what I meant.

    I've heard other learners of EN ask about "separation of sounds." Maybe, there are a lot of cases where it's ambiguous in English; for instance in democracy, mabye the C can sometimes be more attached to the O, sometimes more to the R, depending on speed, expressive emphasis, etc.

    I thought James M. made a good point in the EN thread about how we AE speakers often pronounce the word with a "moc" sound (very soft c) in its middle.
     
  9. Ariel Knightly

    Ariel Knightly Senior Member

    Rio de Janeiro
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Yes, he did. :)
     

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