1. PinkGuerillaWarfare Junior Member

    United States
    English (U.S.A.), Spanish (Argentina)
    I was searching the name Isabelle (which I thought was of French origin), but a website states that Isabelle is Hebrew and means "my G-d is a vow". Just wondering if this is true, and if Isabelle is even used in Israel?
     
  2. Nanon

    Nanon Senior Member

    Entre Paris et Lisbonne
    français (France)
    Just to say that in French, Isabelle derivates from Isabel, which is the Spanish form of Elisabeth.
     
  3. PinkGuerillaWarfare Junior Member

    United States
    English (U.S.A.), Spanish (Argentina)
    I am aware of that speaking both Spanish and French, but there area some theories that state Isabel actually derives from an old Semitic name meaning "daughter of Ba'al".
     
  4. scriptum

    scriptum Senior Member

    Israel
    Israel / Hebrew, Russian
    The Hebrew name is אלישבע, which seems to mean something like "my God is a vow", or maybe "I swear by God".
    In Hebrew, שבע literally means "seven". For the ancient Semites, seven was a sacred number, used in oaths, solemn vows, seals, agreements etc.
     
  5. PinkGuerillaWarfare Junior Member

    United States
    English (U.S.A.), Spanish (Argentina)
    Scriptum,
    I'm still wondering, is Isabelle used as a given name in Hebrew? Would the direct writing of אלישבע be Isablle, Isabel, Isabella, or Isabela? I hope you know what I mean. Mili is a Hebrew name but in English there are other ways to spell it like Millie or Milly.
     
  6. scriptum

    scriptum Senior Member

    Israel
    Israel / Hebrew, Russian
    Sorry, PinkGuerillaWarfare, I do not understand what you mean by "the direct writing"...
    The name אלישבע is pronounced "Elisheva". It is a rare name now.
     
  7. בעל-חלומות Senior Member

    ישראל, עברית
    Isabelle is not a Hebrew name, but it might be Semetic. איזבל (Izabel) was a phoenician queen from Tsidon who married an Israeli king to form an allience.

    So they might be two different names that sound the same, or maybe Isabelle was taken from the bible, like many other European names.
     
  8. scriptum

    scriptum Senior Member

    Israel
    Israel / Hebrew, Russian
    The biblical name איזבל has become Jezebel in English as well as in French. The biblical Jezebel was a wicked woman, and I doubt that anybody would call his daughter after her.
     
  9. Macnas Junior Member

    English and Russian, United States
    I think you're missing what they're trying to say. The Hebrew name is אלישבע, pronounced elisheva. The names "Elizabeth", "Isabel", etc, all come from Elisheva. Names change as they pass from language to language. "Isabelle" is just the French adaptation of Hebrew Elisheva.
     
  10. PinkGuerillaWarfare Junior Member

    United States
    English (U.S.A.), Spanish (Argentina)
    That's what I wanted to know Scriptum, what אלישבע translated to in English, which is Elisheva, or Elizabeth. But in English Elizabeth or Elisabeth are different form Isabelle. Thanks for your help though.
     
  11. PinkGuerillaWarfare Junior Member

    United States
    English (U.S.A.), Spanish (Argentina)
    Thanks Macnas. So, if ones name is Isabel and they decided to move or even visit Israel, will they be called Elisheva? Because Isabel isn't hard to pronounce in Hebrew at all.
     
  12. Mjolnir

    Mjolnir Senior Member

    Israel, Hebrew, English
    I don't think so. If I were to meet an Isabel, I'd call her Isabel (איזבל), not Elisheva.
     
  13. PinkGuerillaWarfare Junior Member

    United States
    English (U.S.A.), Spanish (Argentina)
    I'm no great at Hebrew, but wouldn't איזבל translate to Isabe in English? Which is way closer to Elisheva.
     
  14. Mjolnir

    Mjolnir Senior Member

    Israel, Hebrew, English
    No, not really. איזבל is Isabel.

    Of course, I'm not really "translating" the name. It's like how I'd call Joshua - ג'ושוע and not יהושוע.
     
  15. Nanon

    Nanon Senior Member

    Entre Paris et Lisbonne
    français (France)
    Sorry... Both forms coexist in French and English (Isabel / Isobel etc... vs Elizabeth in English, Isabelle vs Elisabeth in French)
     
  16. Macnas Junior Member

    English and Russian, United States

    Just like "Ivan" and "John", or "James" and "Jacob" coexist in English.
     
  17. tals New Member

    American English
    Isabel (איזבל) is the correct (or Hebrew) pronunciation of "Jezebel," found in the Book of Kings. Ancient Semitics, among others, often had names that exalted one god or another. She was a Phoenician and the wife of the king of Israel (the Northern Kingdom according to the bible). As she worshipped Ba'al, among other gods, it is appropriate that, like her father, "Ethbaal," her name should reflect this.
    Due to her worship of these gods, Isabel, whether the biblical story is true or merely religio-political propaganda of its time, represented the negative "other" to the Southern Kingdom of Judah (whose followers worshipped Yahweh). Due to her negative role in the biblical narrative, there are alternate theories as to the root meaning of 'Isabel' that may not have any relation to Ba'al, rather, to words such as 'dung' or 'no husband'.
     
  18. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    Izevel (or Izebel) = אִיזֶבֶל
     
  19. Abu Rashid

    Abu Rashid Senior Member

    Melbourne, Australia
    Australian English
    But the word ba'al is not a component of her name.

    Ba'al is בעל not בל.

    The name may well not have any actual meaning in Hebrew, as it's not even a Hebrew name to begin with, but a Phoenician one (supposedly).
     
  20. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    This divinity is called Bel in the east, Akkadian speaking lands. Yet I agree that it's anything but obvious the the -bel of Izebel means Ba`al. Wikipedia for Jezebel suggests that -bel may mean either ba`al is the narrower sense of husband or a variation of the god's name, with a caveat that "attempts to trace the meaning of the name (Jezebel) are speculative, since its origin can only be conjectured".

    Regarding mutual legibility of names among Hebrew and Phoenician - the languages are supposed to be very similar, actually two dialects of Canaanite, especially when discussing Northern Hebrew (Israelite, vs. Judean) in the 9th century BC. Therefore names are also likely to be similar. Take for example King Hiram son of Abiba`al in the 10th Century -his name is equivalent to אחירם בן אביהו. the Barka brothers from Carthago, 3rd century: Hanninba`al (חניבעל) is חנניה, `azroba`al (עזרובעל) is עזריה.

    There are also names whose meaning is not clear in Hebrew although evidently common to Hebrew and other Canaanite dialects. For example סיסרא Sisera, the captain of Jabin king of Canaan that reigned in Hazor יבין מלך כנען אשר מלך בחצור: this name recurs centuries later in the list of Hebrew families returning from Babylon to Judea. The name is usually regarded as foreign (Philistine, Hittie, Hurrian, Egyptian, or even Sardinian) - this may be also the case of Jezebel.
     
  21. Abu Rashid

    Abu Rashid Senior Member

    Melbourne, Australia
    Australian English
    Actually Bēlu. Although the Akkadians had simplified many of the more difficult to produce Semitic sounds, they still did not render it as merely baa-lam. Also there's no indication Izabel has anything to do with Akkadian. It's supposed to be Phoenician no? Clearly the Hebrews and the Phoenicians in the 9th. century still pronounced ayin, and did not assimilate it to a glottal stop or to nothing as Hebrew does today.

    Just out of curiosity, is איז a word? Because I've come across an explanation which splits it into two component words on different letters, אי + זבל does this make any sense in Hebrew? Apparently זבל means exalted?

    These two theophoric names, along with her father's name, tend to suggest the Phoenicians were quite adept at keeping the proper radicals in the name. which makes the izabel = something + ba'al, quite unlikely.
     
  22. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    The Canaanite/Hebrew pronounciation of the Akkadian name is Bel. See for example Jeremiah 51:44.

    איז? No such word that I can think of.

    I don't think that זבל = zebel appears in the Bible. זבל = zbul does appear, in two meanings: God's temple, and a person name (a guy from the town of שכם shkhem).
    In Mishnaic Hebrew (and until today, including), זבל zebel (pronounced zevel) means manure, fertilizer, garbage. IMO it's not impossible that the queen's name was 'modified' already in Biblical times to express the strong negative sentiment against her, there are other such examples.
     
  23. Abu Rashid

    Abu Rashid Senior Member

    Melbourne, Australia
    Australian English
    I see. But it still doesn't link her name to Akkadian, and it doesn't explain why in her father's name the ba'al component is spelled correctly, yet in her name it is not.

    Then how can the name be a combination of איז + בל if איז has no meaning?

    Both אי and זבל have meanings right?

    Well she was considered an oppressor of the prophets right? And the prophets supposedly wrote a great deal of the Tanakh, so easy to see why her name might be distorted to refer to dung I guess.
     
  24. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    Maybe the ז is an Hebrew pronounciation of a Semitic th sound lost in Hebrew but maintained in Phoenician, followed by an aspired t that by itself sounds similar to th or s. So the shift is iths (or itht) -> iz. In that case איז can be a cognate of Hebrew אשת, Aramaic אתת = woman, wife.
     
  25. Abu Rashid

    Abu Rashid Senior Member

    Melbourne, Australia
    Australian English
    As far as I'm aware the only lost Semitic sound that ז is a reflex of is the letter dhal (ar. ذ). It seems the attempts to fit it into ba'al are stretching further and further each step of the way :)
     
  26. OsehAlyah Senior Member

    Los Angeles, CA
    English(USA), Russian
    Going strictly from memory here. But as I remember she was the daughter of the king of Tzidon. Tzidon was the first born son of C'na'an. So descendants of Ham. Phoenicians (Tzor) were a different group of people (perhaps descendats of Yefet?) Although, geographically they were located very close. I do believe they remained separate city-states though.
    Just wanted to mention that איז need not be a complete word to be a prefix in a name. It can be a start of another word.
    Hmmm this is the first time that I hear of anything like this. Although, my Hebrew knowledge is quite lowly. Luckily, origumi has already addressed this. Also, wanted to mentioned that Le'a named her son זבלון, which appears to be using these three letters in the name.
    Yes most likely. The form of her name reminds me of another name in the Tanach. I'khavod.

    Coming back to Isabelle. What evidence is there that it is in fact a transformation from Elisabeth as opposed to a derivative from Jezebel?
     
  27. HUMBERT0

    HUMBERT0 Senior Member

    In Spanish we have Isabel, Isabela or Elizabeth (though in this case the “h” is mute as far as Spanish is concern), Elizabeth sounds more like the English form whereas Isabela sounds more natural in Spanish, and the pet name is “Chavela”. As for the evil queen… the name in Spanish is Jezabel, both names sound different in Spanish.
    :)
     

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