kami / tayo / kayo / sila ni X

Discussion in 'Tagalog and Filipino Languages' started by Qcumber, Mar 29, 2007.

  1. Qcumber Senior Member

    UK English
    I know groups may be expressed by the structure: plural pronoun + ni + name of representative of the group. (The English translation doesn't fully render the Tagalog phrase.)

    1) kamí ni Edwin = we and Edwin

    Such phrases may be used in clauses.

    2) Bábayáran kó kayó ni Edwin.
    = I'll pay you and Edwin.

    What happens when the name is replaced by a noun? Is it necessary to add a possessive adjective?

    3) Bábayáran kó kayó nang kuyá ninyó.
    = I'll pay you and your eldest brother.

    4) Bábayáran kó kayó nang kuyá.
    = I'll pay you and your eldest brother.
     
  2. kios_01 Senior Member

    Metro Manila
    Philippines (Tagalog/Filipino & English)
    Yes. That's a very good observation. I gotta say.

    When I read the second example, a question popped in my head: "Whose brother?"

    So yes, you need a possessive: either "mo" or "ninyó."

    "mo" when that brother has no other younger siblings besides the one you are speaking to.

    "ninyó" when that brother has more younger siblings besides the one you are speaking to.

    Of course, acknowledging that the older brother has more siblings besides the one you are speaking to is optional. So really, you can use "mo" or "ninyo."
     
  3. moonshine Junior Member

    Philippines - Filipino
    The first 2 sentences are correct. Just to point out, the phrases "kayo ni <person>", "kami ni <person>" and "sila ni <person>" may not necessarily indicate a big group as it can be translated as "the <person> and you", "the <person> and me" and "the <person> and him/her" respectively.

    As for the 3rd and 4th sentences, the usage of nang is incorrect, it should be ng. Also, the way sentence 3 & 4 are constructed, they sound like you're paying the person off with a brother (his own brother in sentence #3). It's acceptable I guess, but just to make a distinction, you can add the conjunction at.

    3. Babayaran ko kayo at ng kuya mo/niyo/ninyo.
    Use mo if you're just talking to one person, niyo or ninyo if you're talking to more than one person, all of them related to the brother.

    4. Babayaran ko kayo ni kuya.
    Use this sentence to say that you'll be paying back the person you're talking to and the brother, to which both of you are related.
     
  4. kios_01 Senior Member

    Metro Manila
    Philippines (Tagalog/Filipino & English)
    Actually, to me the construction using "nang" instead of "ng" is more correct. Using "ng" to me would indicate a meaning such as the one you pointed out, i.e., you're paying the person off with a brother.

    "Nang" indicates a connection/conjunction, which in this case means "and." That's why it's "paying you and your brother."

    Meanwhile, "ng" indicates a preposition, daresay an instrumental preposition, which means that the subject is using the object of "ng" as the instrument with which he or she accomplishes an action. Thus, it becomes "paying you with/through/by means of your brother."

    But that's just my logic of it.
     
  5. Qcumber Senior Member

    UK English
    Of course! I had forgotten there were two possibilities: two siblings and more than two siblings.
    So the possessive is necessary. Thanks a lot Kio.
     
  6. Qcumber Senior Member

    UK English
    Do you mean "kayó ng kuyá" is not clear in you mind?
     
  7. Qcumber Senior Member

    UK English
    Yes, an interesting variation.
    So this phrase implies that a minimum of four siblings are involved:
    a) the speaker
    b) the addressees (2 or more)
    c) the eldest brother
     
  8. Qcumber Senior Member

    UK English
    Kios, Moonshine, please forget the ng Vs nang controversy. Ng
    [naõ] is the abbreviation of nang [naõ] and of course is pronounced the same.

    Between WWI and WWII, it was decided that ng [naõ] would be used before nominal phrases and nang [naõ] before adverbial phrases. This is artificial and doesn't reflect anything real in Tagalog grammar.

    As I already said, in this forum, I prefer to write nang whichever the phrase because there may be visitors who could think ng is pronounced [õ]. This actually happened with a German I know.

    It goes without saying I am not asking you to write nang where you are used to writing ng. :) I only gave this explanation so that you shouldn't waste your time explaining me the artificial spelling rule concerning ng Vs nang.

    P.S. I was not consistent in my initial post as regards this matter.
     
  9. Qcumber Senior Member

    UK English
    Family rôles (amá "father", iná "mother", kuyá "elder / eldest brother", áte "elder / eldest" sister") being treated like names by members of the family, the best is to leave them aside for the moment and experiment with an ordinary noun: pinúnò "commandant".
    Remarks. In what follows
    a) ng is the abbreviation of nang and should be read /naÎ/.
    b) mga is the abbreviation of mangá and should be read /ma'Îa/.

    Can pinúnò be left without a possessive?
    1) kamí ng pinúnò = we and the commandant
    2) táyo ng pinúnò = you and us and the commandant
    3) kayó ng pinúnò = you and the commandant
    4) silá ng pinúnò = they and the commandant


    Is the preferable position of the possessive after or before pinúnò?
    AFTER
    5) kamí ng pinúnò nilá = we and their commandant
    6) táyo ng pinúnò nilá = you and us and their commandant
    7) kayó ng pinúnò nilá = you and their commandant
    8) silá ng pinúnò nilá = they and their commandant
    BEFORE
    9) kamí ng kaniláng pinúnò = we and their commandant
    10) táyo ng kaniláng pinúnò = you and us and their commandant
    11) kayó ng kaniláng pinúnò = you and their commandant
    12) silá ng kaniláng pinúnò = they and their commandant


    Can pinúnò be turned into the plural?
    13) kamí ng mga pinúnò = we and the commandants
    14) kamí ng mga pinúnò nilá = we and their commandants
    16) kamí ng mga kaniláng pinúnò = we and their commandants


    Can ng pinúnò and ng mga pinúnò be replaced by pronouns?
    17) kamí niyá = we and he
    18) kamí nilá = we and they
     
  10. Qcumber Senior Member

    UK English
    If a name is used, can it be turned into the plural?
    1) kayó ni Simón = you and Simon
    2) kayó niná Simón = you and Simon and his group
     
  11. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    Qcumber here are my Tagalog translations of your given sentences. 1.) Kami ni Edwin= Edwin and I 2.)Si Edwin at ako ang magbabayad sa inyo.= Edwin and i are the one to pay you. 3.) Babayaran ko ikaw at ang kuya mo.= I'll pay you and your elder brother. You may say= Babayaran ko kayo kapwa./ Kapwa ko kayong babayaran.= I will pay both of you.
     

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