Khaganate : Kağanatı

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by ancalimon, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    This word (which is almost definitely Turkic in origin) is used by almost all of the Turkic populations in the world expect Turkish people. We use the word Kağanlık instead.

    I am trying to figure out two things:

    1-) Why we are not using the word Kağanatı like the rest of the Turkic world.
    2-) The ultimate etymology of the word Kağanatı

    When I think in Turkish, two possibilities (out of which both of them might be correct at the same time) come to my mind:

    1) The word Kağanatı consist of two parts:
    Kağan: Khan
    Atı: horse of xxx or Adı: name of xxx
    Kağan Atı : Horse of the khan

    2)The word Kağanatı can also be pronounced as "Kanadı" (since the G~Ğ sound is susceptible to being omitted among Turkic dialects). It would mean "the wing of xxx". Kanat also means "part~wing of the horde"

    I can't try to establish a link between kanat (most probably related with OQ meaning arrow) meaning wing and the word khan at this time. Since I don't have any appropriate linguistic tools at hand.

    So what is your opinion on my inquiry?
     
  2. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I think the ending -atı has nothing to do with horses, but it's rather an adaptation of the Latin/Romance -atus/-ato. See e.g. words like califato, kanato, kaganato, chanatus, principatus, comitatus, ducatus etc ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  3. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    I think, you are on a wrong track here. Khanate is a Mongolian-English hybrid word containing the Mongolian хан (Khan) and the Latin-derived suffix -ate and means the realm ruled by a Khan. Compare, e.g., Sultanate = the realm ruled by a Sultan.

    By the way: There is a difference between Mongolian хан/Turkish Han (=Khan) and Mongolian хаан​/Turkish Kağan (=Great Khan).

    EDIT: Crossed with Francisgranada's post
     
  4. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    But the same suffix and parts of this suffix also exists in Turkic dialects as suffixes or root words with the same or similar usages. Shouldn't the Turkic words not be related with Latin words? Why should Turks be using a mixture of English+Turkic before they were supposed to meet the Byzantines? (besides we are the ones that are living in what used to be Byzantine soil and still we use the work kağanlık :) )

    I guess the horse meaning is a bit obscure. But it is difficult to say what it could have actually meant without brainstorming and researching. It might even be related with ODA meaning society, organization, association (or room; part of a greater thing in general as in a city of a country or a room of a house or chamber of a government)

    or might be related with the verb ATA meaning to elect, designate, assign

    Also: Kağan actually consists of two words: Khan and Khan. It means "Khan of Khans"

    But I guess you might be right. The word Khagate might have been borrowed by Central Asian Turkic populations much later.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  5. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    In which modern languages do you find the word? In the Trukic languages spoken in former Soviet Republics, e.g. Kazakh қағанат, it is probably derived from Russian каганат (Kaganat). The final [ɨ] is then not part of the word but a suffix, as in Түрік қағанаты (Khazash for Turkic Kaganate), if I understand it correctly.
     
  6. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    If so, then not really a borrowing from the Russian, but a hybrid of Kazakh қаған and Russian каганат. But it is perhaps more likely that қағанат is a Kazakh formation by analogy to Arabic imām(un) ~ imāmat(un).
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  7. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    Yes. ı,i is the suffix in almost all of the Turkic dialects. I think its the possessive suffix.

    For example

    han atı : a horse of a khan (han + at)

    kuş kanadı: a wing of a bird (kuş + kanat)

    sağ uç kanadı: right wing of a frontier lordship (uç + kanat) (it would be a horde terminology)

    şişe kapağı : a lid of a bottle ~ battle lid (şişe + kapak)

    kapı kilidi : a lock of a door ~ door lock (kapı + kilit)

    osmanlı tokadı: a slap of an ottoman ~ ottoman slap (osmanlı + tokat)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  8. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Yes, most likely.
    Do we have other examples in Kazakh where the Arabic suffix ة- is rendered -at and not -a? Something like Arabiat rather then Arabia. It would surprise me.
     
  9. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    I do not know about Kazakh, but in Turkey-Turkish Arabic –atun is represented either by –a/-e or by –at/-et, both with about equal frequency. Examples of the latter are illet علة, keyfiyet كيفية, etc. etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012

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