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Kitab-ı Bahriye / Bahriyye

Discussion in 'Türkçe (Turkish)' started by shawnee, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. shawnee

    shawnee Senior Member

    Melbourne
    English - Australian
    I was reading in Hurryet Daily about the Piri Reis map of 1513 and I'm guessing that Kitabi -i Bahriye means atlas. Is that correct?
     
  2. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    In Giancarlo Casale's "The Ottoman Age of Exploration", it's referred to as the "Book of the Sea". This is a literal translation, since "kitab" is Turkish for "book" (it's a loan from Arabic) and "bahr" is Arabic for "sea".
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  3. shawnee

    shawnee Senior Member

    Melbourne
    English - Australian
    Thanks sound shift. I would have got it had been kitabı deniz. So does that mean it is Ottoman, and or obsolete in modern Turkish?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  4. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    Well, as you say, shawnee, the modern word for "sea" is "deniz". "Bahr" is preserved in a few place names in Turkey, but I notice that "bahr" (or a turkicized variant) is not one of the three translations of "sea" offered by my Langenscheidt Turkish dictionary (but it must be said that it is only a pocket edition). Kitabi -i Bahriye is Ottoman. Nowadays the word order is different too: Deniz Kitabı, rather than Kitabı Deniz. I believe the -i in Kitabi -i Bahriye is based on Arabic or Persian usage, but I am not sure which of the two.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  5. shafaq Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    Kitab-ı Bahriyye means "the book of seamanship/navigation". Yes "bahr" is "sea"; and "bahriyye" literally means "all about the sea"; as a term it means "seamanship/navigation/navy". If you tend to translate it into todays Turkish; it is "Denizcilik Kitabı" or "Denizcinin (El) Kitabı".
     
  6. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    Is this "El" the Arabic definite article? In modern Turkish, you wouldn't speak this "El", would you?
     
  7. Rallino Moderatoúrkos

    Ankara
    Turkish
    El, in Turkish, is 'hand'. :)

    So, El kitabı is a hand book or a small guide.
     
  8. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    Ah, I see. Thanks. But what is the -ı in Kitab -ı Bahriyye? Is it a turkicized form of the Arabic definite article? Why is it written Kitab -ı Bahriyye and not Kitabı Bahriyye?
     
  9. Rallino Moderatoúrkos

    Ankara
    Turkish
    No, it's the genitive.
    KitabıBahriyye = Book of Sea
    Now I might be wrong on this as Ottoman is not my strongest point, but if I recall well, this type of Genitive is a loan from Persian.
    As a side note, in this type of genitives (consonant+i), the i wasn't even shown in spelling: كتاب باحریە -- (ktab bahrye).
     
  10. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    Thanks, Rallino.
     
  11. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    It is not genitive. It is the Persian izaafat construction (headword + particle i + possessive or adjective)

    KitabBahriyye

    كتاب بحريه
     
  12. shawnee

    shawnee Senior Member

    Melbourne
    English - Australian
    Gee you guys make me feel dumb.:D A least I knew the el - hand, from Rum -eli. Best thing is I'm learning. WR is the best. Just pretend I said thanks in Turkish, Persian and Arabic.
     
  13. Melaike

    Melaike Junior Member

    Turkey
    Turkish
    Rum-eli means ''Land of Rum(Roman)'' , ''El'' means land/country here.
     
  14. shawnee

    shawnee Senior Member

    Melbourne
    English - Australian
    Ah! I should know better than to rely on coffee shop etymology. Thanks for clearing that up Melaike.
     
  15. ecdadihifzeylerdi Junior Member

    Turkish
    El ال article is most of the time omitted in Ottoman in izafe constructions, and follows the rules in Farsi but it does exist in some cases such as Darülfünun دار الفنون
     

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