lapis, lapidis

Discussion in 'Lingua Latina (Latin)' started by Casquilho, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. Casquilho Senior Member

    São Paulo, Brazil
    Portuguese - Brazil
  2. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    (gen.) lapidis:tick:
    according to my dictionary and this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
  3. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    May I say that I am baffled by your question? Even if the genitive were lapis, how could the abl. pl. be “lapidiis”? As a matter of fact, in Old Latin we have a single reference for the abl. sing. lapi, implying that the word could be transferred from the d stems to the i stems. Moreover, in classical Latin we have the gen. pl. lapiderum. The automatically generated paradigm on the Wiktionary site does not of course take any of this into account.
     
  4. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    Where can we find this form in Classical Latin?
     
  5. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Lewis and Short give a reference to Gellius.
     
  6. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    That's Gnaeus Gellius, so also Old Latin (cited by the Late Latin grammarian Charisius). So it has the same status as Ennius's ablative lapi.
     
  7. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    I am not quite sure about “same status”. Ennius lived a generation or two before Gellius. lapi is presumably an authentic Old Latin variant. lapiderum looks more like an ad-hoc formation, by analogy to words like gener-um, reanalysed as gen-erum.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  8. Casquilho Senior Member

    São Paulo, Brazil
    Portuguese - Brazil
    My bad: what I actually would to mean is:

    If lapis, lapidis = 3rd declension, consonant stem, following the pattern of rex, regis: plural ablative lapidibus
    If lapis, lapis = 3rd declension, i-stem, following the pattern of civis, civis: plural ablative lapibus
     
  9. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Yes, this is correct.

    This is not the case, except with the archaic abl. sing. lapi used by the early poet Ennius.
     
  10. Casquilho Senior Member

    São Paulo, Brazil
    Portuguese - Brazil
    Thank you, fdb.
     
  11. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    What I meant was that both forms are extremely rare, non-classical, useless (at best) for the vast majority of Latin learners, and justifiably absent from the Wiktionary paradigm.
     
  12. stevelogan Junior Member

    Milan
    Italian
    The classical form is làpis làpidis, for the most classical authors (e.g. Cicero, Livius) with lapidibus used for the ablative. Lapi in abl. and lapid-erum in pl. gen. is used by Ennius and is considered "arcaic".
     
  13. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    Lapi appears in Ennius Ann XV, quoted by Priscian: obcumbunt multi letum ferroque lapique. Priscian interpreted this as fdb does above, assuming that lapis had an parisyllabic declension in Old Latin ("vetustissimi tamen etiam huius lapis protulerunt", although he doesn't provide any actual examples of genitive lapis, and there may be alternative explanations for ablative lapi).

    Lapiderum is not attested in Ennius, but in Cn. Gellius, as stated already above.
     
  14. stevelogan Junior Member

    Milan
    Italian
    I checked before writing, and that was what I found in Georges-Calonghi dictionary in use in Italy from 1950 so far: Lapiderum feminine genitive pl. Enn., Varr. et Ser. I cannot cross-check with other fonts at the moment, my bad... Probably there is a typo in Georges.

    The general sense was that lapiderum is archaic. Cn. Gellius is arcaic enough...
     

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