Los niños (se) pueden participar. (Poder vs. Poderse)

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Vocabulary / Vocabulario Español-Inglés' started by taylor11, Aug 7, 2009.

  1. taylor11 New Member

    United States, English
    Hi,

    Can anyone tell me the difference between Poder and Poderse.

    Do they imply different things to say:

    Los niños se pueden participar.

    vs.

    Los niños pueden participar.

    I feel like there is a difference, but I can't remember what it is.


    Thanks!!
     
  2. MiriamE Senior Member

    Malaga (Spain)
    Spanish
    Taylor11, I'm afraid "Los niños se pueden participar" is not right.
     
  3. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    Poder is not a pronominal verb. Poder only takes pronouns (me, te, se...) when it functions as an auxiliary verb together with another pronominal verb:
    Me puedo equivocar = Puedo equivocarme.
     
  4. Ampelfrau

    Ampelfrau Senior Member

    Galego/Spanish, Spain
    Hi Taylor11!

    As MiriamE said, the second sentence is not right and, in fact, the verb "poderse" does not exist.
    The only correct form of this verb is "poder".
    But, since this verb always goes with another one, if the second one is a reflexive/pronominal verb the reflexive pronoun (that is, not only the particle "se", but also 'me', 'te', 'nos' or 'os'), usually the pronoun can move around the sentence.
    I'll try to show an example to make it clear

    poder + sentarse (sit down)
    Yo puedo sentarme = Yo me puedo sentar
    Tú puedes sentarte = Tú te puedes sentar
    María/Marcos puede sentarse = M se puede sentar
    Nosotros podemos sentarnos = Nosotros nos podemos sentar
    Vosotros podéis sentaros = Vosotros os podéis sentar
    Los niños pueden sentarse = Los niños se pueden sentar


    If the second verb is not a reflexive verb, i.e., a verb that doesn't take the particle 'se' (or any other reflexive pronoun), as is the verb "participar" (you never say "participarse"), there won't be any reflexive pronoun in the sentece, and that's why the sentence "Los niños se pueden participar" is not correct.

    Hope the explanation is not to messy... ;)
     
  5. taylor11 New Member

    United States, English
    Thank you both very much for your thoughts.

    So just out of curiosity, then, why is the famous saying

    "Sí, se puede" with the "se" if there is no other nominal verb. Just trying to fully wrap my head around it.

    Muchas Gracias!!
     
  6. Ampelfrau

    Ampelfrau Senior Member

    Galego/Spanish, Spain

    Because there the meaning is "Sí, se puede [hacer]"
    When you say that you are necessarily referring to something else :)
     
  7. taylor11 New Member

    United States, English
    thanks ampelfrau - very clear.
     
  8. kodiakbear Senior Member

    English, United States
    I just had the same question ampelfra. Me pregunto si the reflexive pronoun se works with the subjunctive forms of poder instead.

    I found the following sentence in un cuento para niños.
    Guille tenía una bonita casa y los mejores padres que se puedan desear.

    It seems like se puedan means "could be", unless this is incorrect grammar in the book.
     
  9. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    All these forms work well here:
    ...los mejores padres que se puedan/pueden/pudieran/pudiesen desear.

    ..the best parents one can/could/would/might wish for.
     
  10. macame

    macame Senior Member

    Half a mile to heaven
    Spanish & Galician
    En este caso no es se reflexivo, sino de pasiva refleja:
    se puedan desear = puedan ser deseados
     
  11. mlt1

    mlt1 New Member

    Illinois, USA
    Engish = USA
    Hola todos,

    Hallé este 'thread' porque leí este, "Me puede hablar un poco más despacio".

    ?Que significa?

    Gracias,

    mlt1
     
  12. mlt1

    mlt1 New Member

    Illinois, USA
    Engish = USA
    Actualmente, yo se lo que significa, (yo creo) pero no entiendo porque se ultilizalo.
     
  13. yolan Senior Member

    Spanish (Spain)
    Lo entiendes mejor así?
    "Puede hablarme un poco más despacio"
    Significa lo mismo.
    El pronombre "me" va con "hablar", pero se puede poner la principio de la frase junto con el verbo "poder"
     
  14. mlt1

    mlt1 New Member

    Illinois, USA
    Engish = USA
    Hola Yolan,

    Traduzca su repuesta pasada, por favor. Soy estudiante de español. Todavía estoy aprendiendo.

    Gracias,

    mlt1
     
  15. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    Could you speak more slowly?
     
  16. yolan Senior Member

    Spanish (Spain)
    Sure.

    "Can you speak (to me) a bit more slowly?"
     
  17. JB

    JB Senior Member

    Santa Monica, CA, EEUU
    English (AE)
    Can you talk to me?
    The "me" is just an object pronoun - it has nothing specifically to do with "poder".
    A few of the 10 Million other possible examples:
    Look at me.
    I hate you.
    She bought me a new car.

    If there is still confusion, please use the WR Dictionary or search engine to look for threads re object pronouns.
     
  18. mlt1

    mlt1 New Member

    Illinois, USA
    Engish = USA
    Ahora yo entiendo, "me" va con hablar, no con poder. ?Es verdad?
     
  19. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    Sí, pero puede colocarse también con 'poder':
    ¿Puede hablarme más despacio?
    ¿Me puede hablar más despacio?
     
  20. mlt1

    mlt1 New Member

    Illinois, USA
    Engish = USA
    Gracias, Agró.

    Y gracias a todos.
     

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