Macedonian: What did you say?

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by cr00mz, Aug 25, 2012.

  1. cr00mz Senior Member


    I was wondering if this question could be asked as "што ти рече?" and mean "what did you say?" and not mean "what did he/she say to you"`
  2. Kartof Senior Member

    Bulgarian & English
    No, at least not in Bulgarian because the "ти" is taken to be the indirect object clitic in that position. You have to put the "ти" first in the sentence, then the question word and finally the verb. I'm not sure if this is exactly the same in Macedonian due to the different clitic placement rules though. Typically, you wouldn't need the "ти" at all unless you're trying to especially stress the fact that you're speaking to a certain person rather than someone previously mentioned in conversation (due to the fact that the 2nd and 3rd person singular verbs in the aorist and imperfect tenses have the same form of course).
  3. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    Што ти рече? (with intonation on што) means "what did he/she say to you?".

    Ти што рече? (with intonation on ти) is like the English "what did *you* say?" with intonation on 'you'.
  4. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    It could be in BCS, though 1) it sounds unlikely and a bit artificial (one would normally use perfect rather than aorist: Šta si ti rekao? 'What did you say?') and 2) Even if used, they could be discerned by intonation: nominative 'ti' is stressed, and dative 'ti' is clitic.
  5. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    For inquiring about what a person said further in the past, yes, Šta si (ti) rekao? is better. But for asking and/or expressing puzzlement/consternation/outrage over something the collocutor just said, Šta reče (ti)? would be appropriate.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  6. Gnoj Senior Member

    Either "Ти што рече?", "Што рече ти?" or simply "Што рече?" would be equally correct for "What did you say?".
    "Што ти рече?", "Тој/таа што ти рече?" or "Што ти рече тој/таа?" means "What did he/she say to you".

    I = јас, me = мене = ме, to me = (на) мене = ми
    you (sg) = ти, you = тебе = те, to you = (на) тебе = ти (two identically looking, but different ти-s )
    he = тој, him = него = го, to him = нему/на него = му
    she = таа, her = неа = ја, to her = нејзе/на неа = ѝ

    we = ние, us = нас = нѐ, to us = нам/на нас = ни
    you (pl) = вие, you = вас = ве, to you = вам/на вас = ви
    they = тие, them = нив = ги, to them = ним им/на нив = им
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  7. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    This sounds odd to me, almost like a vocative: "what did you say, you?!".
  8. Gnoj Senior Member

    In such a case it would be "Што рече, ти?", the coma makes difference.
  9. cr00mz Senior Member

    What about "Што тој/таа рече?"

    Is this possible?
  10. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    It is possible, but at least in BCS, this "тој/таа" ( "тај/та", српски) is somehow offensive, since it means the speaker doesn't know the name of a person, or doesn't know the person at all, or the speaker knows him/her but doesn't want to call that dude by his/her name. "What did that dude say?", something like that, in English. The "acceptable" variant is if a person is surprised or with disbelief ("What did he say????")
  11. Gnoj Senior Member

    It isn't offensive, because in this particular case "toj/taa" is actually "on/ona" (he/she) in BCS. If we say "тој човек" or "таа жена", then it's "taj čovek"/"ta žena" (that man/that woman) in BCS. Referring to a person with овој/оваа/оној/онаа (BCS: ovaj/ova/onaj/ona, English: this one/that one) is offensive.

    So (just for cr00mz):
    Овој човек вели дека... = This man says that.. - not offensive
    Овој студент... = This student... - not offensive
    Оваа девојка... = This girl... - not offensive

    Овој вели дека... = This one says that... - offensive
    Оваа не сака да слуша = This one doesn't want to listen - offensive
    Одведи го оној = Take that one away - offensive
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  12. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    When you call a person "taj", for example: "Šta taj tamo hoće?", it is offensive, it reflects irritability. If you say: "Šta taj čovek hoće?" it's not offensive (but even here one can feel mild irritation in the sentence), because you used the word "man", unlike my first example, when the person is reduced to seemingly insignificant "taj". In that way I meant - it may sound offensive.

    Шта тај човек рече? or even better Шта је тај човек рекао? is more acceptable to me.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  13. Kartof Senior Member

    Bulgarian & English
    I'm pretty sure that in Macedonian, like in Bulgarian, the aorist is preferred over the present perfect in this case.
  14. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    Oh, I didn't want to pinpoint a specific tense, but that "naked" тој/таа.
    I believe you meant - аорист is preferred over перфекат. (Serbian аорист partly serves as English present perfect tense. Is there the present perfect tense in Bulgarian or Macedonian? In Serbian it doesn't exist. I found this thread about Bulgarian tenses.)

    In spoken Serbian too, in informal conversation. But generally, (in Serbian) перфекат is more common and far more spread.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2012
  15. Gnoj Senior Member

    Yes, but as I explained earlier, "toj" in Macedonian doesn't always necessarily correspond to "taj" in BCS, it can also be "on", and that was the case we were talking about.

    Što reče toj = Šta je on rekao
    Što reče toj čovek = Šta je taj čovek rekao

    This is not valid for Macedonian. We can say "Што рекол тој човек?", but it won't have the same meaning as the "Што рече тој човек?". "Што рекол тој човек?" means something like "What have you been told or heard he has said?". So we use that form only when we're talking about something we've read, heard or been told be someone else and we haven't witnessed personally.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2012
  16. Gnoj Senior Member

    Perfect tense in Macedonian is formed with "имам", but that's not 100% consistent in the standard language.

    I have read = имам (про)читано
    I have been = сум бил (in Western-most dialect there is also "имам бидено" and "биден сум")
  17. Brainiac Senior Member

    Srpski - Kosovo
    Sorry guys, I've invaded Macedonian thread :D. I'll shut up now.
  18. Gnoj Senior Member

    No, I don't feel that way, because there is no "on" in Macedonian. There's only "toj", that's what I've been trying to tell you all along. :) "On" is only a dialect/slang/colloquial form in spoken Macedonian, some even consider it a serbism. Either way, its use is informal and limited to the Northern-most regions of the country.
  19. cr00mz Senior Member

    Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but if I say "човекот рекол дека има пари" does that mean "(I heared) The man has said that there is money"?

    If yes, what would you say if you stood beside the man as he said this sentence?
  20. Gnoj Senior Member

    Човекот рекол дека има пари. - (Somebody else claims that) the man said he has money.
    Човекот рече дека има пари. - (I/We claim that) the man said he has money. You don't know if that claim is true, so you can also put it this way:
    Човекот имал пари. (Somebody else claims) that the man has money.
    Човекот има пари. - (I/We claim that) the man has money.
  21. cr00mz Senior Member

    Rekol and Imal, that is from the present perfect, no? Shouldn't it be;

    the man has said he has money and the man has had money

    The man had money - čovekot imaše pari
    The man has had money - čovekot imal pari

    The man said - čovekot reče
    The man has said - čovekot rekol

    or am I wrong?
  22. lordwings Member

    You're messing up the present perfect and the rennarative mood in macedonian and bulgarian.
  23. Christo Tamarin

    Christo Tamarin Senior Member

    This case is treated identically in both Bulgarian and Macedonian.

    Both meanings are possible. There is no means to specify the meaning in graphics. In speech, the intonation is to specify the meaning.

    "what did you say?": "што ти рече?" Accent on ти/you. Unless accented, ти (you) should be omitted in this sence: personal pronouns are usually omitted in Nominative.

    "what did he/she say to you": "што ти рече?"

    Other intonation patterns:

    "what did you say?": "што рече (ти)?" (personal pronouns in Nominative is omitted if the context allows)
    "what did he/she say?": "што рече (той/тя)?" (personal pronouns in Nominative is omitted if the context allows)
    "what did he/she say to you": "на тебе што ти рече?", "што ти рече на тебе?"

    The clue here is that, in Bulgarian/Macedonian, the Aorist (рече) and the Imperfect (имаше) are not possible unless the speaker is a witness. Aorist and Imperfect are to be replaced by Renarrative mood otherwise: (рече => рекъл) and (имаше => имал).

    Please also note that, unlike English, there is no concordance of tenses in Bulgarian/Macedonian/Slavic.
  24. cr00mz Senior Member

    @Christo Tamarin

    I am not sure if I understand your last sentence (concordance), but does it mean that If I use present perfect in english, I cannot directly translate it with present perfect in macedonian? (the same for imperfect etc.)

    Also since renarrative is for things you are not a witness for. Is it used then for 3rd person singular and plural mostly?
  25. cr00mz Senior Member

    Can you say човекот имал речено and still mean човекот рекол. I think they have the same meaning, no?
  26. lordwings Member

    The meaning is the same in Bulgarian, but it isn't often used there. However, I think it is used in Macedonian.

    Yes, it is used mostly in third person, or when you ask someone about something concerning him but you are not sure it has happened. In 1st person it is used almost only as past perfect tense, unless when you ask for something about yourself, you can't remember.
  27. cr00mz Senior Member

    Thanks for the reply, his witnessed/non-witnessed stuff is really tricky.

    Does anything change if you say слушнав дека човекот имаше пари. This is a word for word translation of the english, "I heard that the man had money". This is non-witnessed, but does it transfer the same meaning in Macedonian?
  28. lordwings Member

    You can say it if you can remember where or from who you have heard it otherwise you should use слушнал instead of слушнав.
  29. Arath Senior Member

    I think your confusing the question, crOOmz is asking about the tense of "има" (имаше, имал).

    "Слушнав" in Macedonians means "I heard" (чух), so if you replace it with "слушнал", you are changing not only the mood but also the subject:

    "Слушнал дека човекот имаше пари." means "He reportedly heard that the man had money", but I'm not sure this sentence is correct, though.

    In Bulgarian, technically, the sentence "Чух, че човекът имаше пари" is proscribed and it could be interpreted as something different "I heard the man having money" (literally heard, not in the sense that someone told me). I don't know what the sound of having money is.

    It is proscribed because, in Bulgarian, when we use verbs of perception (seeing, hearing) and some other verbs, but let me not confuse you any more, we don't have tense agreement (heard - had) like in English. So in English, you would say:

    I saw that the vase was there (saw/was) - both verbs refer to the past and both verbs are in the past tense.

    In Bulgarian we would rather say:

    Видях, че вазата е там (I saw that the vase is there - saw/is) - both verbs refer to the past, but they are in different tenses.

    "Видях, че вазата беше там" is possible, but proscribed, and it could be used in situations when you want to emphasize that the vase is no longer there. You saw it there some time ago, but it's not there now.

    In Bulgarian you could either say "Чух, че човекът има пари", or "Чух, че човекът имал пари". They mean roughly the same thing. You should use the indicative mood (има), when you want to say that someone told you that the man had money and you believe them. You should use the renarrative mood, when you want to say that someone told you that the man had money, but you're not sure if that information is correct, it could be false. It's not you who's claiming that the man had money, it's someone else's claim.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  30. lordwings Member

    So, you say that in Macedonian "Слушнал дека човекот имаше пари." is rather understood as third personal sentence (Он е слушнал) than sentence in first person (Сум слушнал), it is the same in Bulgarian, but I haven't noticed it when I wrote the answer. So, the "сум" verb in respective person should not be omitted unles it is already known by the context.
  31. Arath Senior Member

    One cannot not present when one does something, that is, one cannot not witness what one did, so the renarrative mood is used in first person only in very special cases, such as when one does not remember very well what one did (Заспал съм и съм забравил да изключа лампата - I fell asleep and I forgot to turn off the light), or when one relates someone else's words about oneself and one wishes to express one's disagreement with them (Тя твърди, че съм ѝ (бил) откраднал книгата - She claims that I stole her book, but I claim that that's not true). So I don't think that crOOmz is asking about the mood of "слушнав" but rather of "имаше".
  32. cr00mz Senior Member

    I think that you have made me even more confused.

    How can you say Видях, че вазата е там, if you are no longer at the place where the vase is? Perhaps it is no longer there.
  33. Gnoj Senior Member

    cr00mz, what you're all dissecting now is advanced Macedonian and Bulgarian. Keeping at mind that verbs ending with -л (-ал, -ел, -ил, -ол) are non-witnessed and all the other verbs are witnessed is a good start. In the beginning you can even use the witnessed ones only, anyone will understand what you're saying, colloquial Macedonian isn't that strict. Just by using the language you'll be advancing and figuring out things on your own and grasping them more easily when explained by someone else.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  34. cr00mz Senior Member

    Thanks everyone for the help, and yes, Gnoj I think you are right it is perhaps best to leave the more advanced things for a later time.

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