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more protection with guns than the allies could have known

Discussion in 'French and English Grammar / Grammaire française et anglaise' started by Matcauthon, Jan 4, 2007.

  1. Matcauthon

    Matcauthon Senior Member

    English Canada
    Could you say "pourraient su" to mean "could've known" in this sentence: Secondaire, les allemands ont eu plus de protection avec les fusils que les alliés pourraient su.


    Which is supposed to mean: Secondly, the germans had more protection with guns then the allies could have known.



    Thanks a bunch.
    edit: would whatever is going to be said also be true for this sentence(pourraient attaque):Si les officiers au contrôle ont su cela, ils pourraient attaqué avec les tactiques différents.
     
  2. davidq0806 New Member

    Omagh
    English - Northern Ireland
    hey, I would use <<que les alliés auraient pu savoir>>, this construction reeeeeealy used to confuse me; think of it as "would have been able to know", as "could" instantaneously used to make me think conditional of "pouvoir"!
    feel free to correct this though!

    :)
     
  3. Cath.S.

    Cath.S. Senior Member

    Bretagne, France
    français de France
    I would say n'auraient pu le savoir.
    Matcauthon, note that neither pourraient nor auraient are in the subjunctive, they are present conditionals.
     
  4. Matcauthon

    Matcauthon Senior Member

    English Canada
    As long as a native or another says thats a good way to conjugate it, its fine by me, ill also use this on my edited bit until I'm told its wrong.

    I like it because it uses pouvoir, which I thought would most definately have to be in there somewhere.

    Thanks:thumbsup:
     
  5. Matcauthon

    Matcauthon Senior Member

    English Canada
    My mistake was I tried to replace "ils aient" with "ils pourraient" and I thought that I had done an odd passed subjunctive, which I didnt, as I know know, thanks.

    I also like the pronoun le you added in, I get confused about those as well (see general pronouns)

    (I got the below from http://www.leconjugueur.com/php/newconjugue.php?lang=fr&oblige=N&verbe=savoir)

    subjonctif
    • Passé
    • que j'aie su
      que tu aies su
      qu'il ait su
      que nous ayons su
      que vous ayez su
      qu'ils aient su
     
  6. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    hi matcauthon :)

    the past subjunctive conjugations for "savoir" in your post #5 are not incorrect. but the point is that you don't NEED the subjunctive!

    the subjunctive is required in all sorts of situations (expressing volition, emotional reaction, necessity, doubt, etc) but you simply don't have any of these cases in your sentence examples, so you don't need and indeed can't use the subjunctive.

    however, your two sentence examples aren't quite the same grammatical construction.

    1. comparison (plus que)
    les allemands ont eu plus de protection avec les fusils que les alliés n'auraient pu le savoir
    but perhaps you should use "avaient plus de..." in the imparfait because it is a past description.

    2. si clause:
    if they had known (plus-que-parfait), they would have been able to attack (conditionnel passé)
    Si les officiers au contrôle avaient su cela, ils auraient pu attaquer avec les tactiques différents.
    or
    if they knew (imparfait), they could attack (conditionnel)
    Si les officiers au contrôle savaient cela, ils pourraient attaquer avec les tactiques différents.

    this is just the summary of what other people have suggested for your verb tenses... hope it helps :)
     
  7. Matcauthon

    Matcauthon Senior Member

    English Canada
    Well thank you, I can properly continue with my sentences now, but seeing as the topic is subjunctive questions, what is
    1-expresing volition?
    2-How could you express emotion with Subjunction?
    3-the si clause and comparison clause are for conditionel passe?
    4-Si cette évènement n'avait pas eu lieu, les trois attaques qui faisaient parti du raid auraient été plus efficaces-would this also need to be changed to conditonel, possibly as -Si cette evenement n'aurait pas eu lieu, les trois attaques qui fasaient parti du raid seraient plus efficaces?
    Everyone, thanks
     
  8. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    question 1. volition (wishing and wanting)
    je veux que mon fils fasse (subj.) ses devoirs - I want my son to do his homework.

    question 2. personal emotional reaction
    je suis contente que tu sois venu (past subj.) - I am happy that you came.

    question 3. I'm afraid I don't understand the question.
    The "comparison" sentence is labeled "1" in my previous post. It compared the actual level of protection to the level that the Allies could have known about. The tenses for the various verbs are pretty much just like English. The "si clause" sentence is labeled "2" in my previous post, and I gave you two different possibilities. If you read the English versions I also gave you, you will see that the first is probably the right sentence for your context (it's further in the past, whereas the second could be in the present).

    question 4.
    :tick: Si cette événement n'avait pas eu lieu, les trois attaques qui faisaient partie du raid auraient été plus efficaces
    This sentence is completely correct and makes perfect sense. Tense-wise, it is just the same in English as in French: If this event hadn't happened (pluperfect), the three attacks that were part of the raid would have been (past conditional) more efficient.

    :cross: Si cette evenement n'aurait pas eu lieu...
    You have used the the future conditional, "if this event will not have happened...," which doesn't make any sense...

    hope that helps!
     
  9. Matcauthon

    Matcauthon Senior Member

    English Canada
    Thank you, that does help.
     

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