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Msza/Mass - problem z "a", "the", kiedy jest a kiedy nie ma?

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by Strzykafka, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. Strzykafka

    Strzykafka Junior Member

    Austin, TX
    Polish
    Witajcie,

    Nie rozumiem jak zasada a/an/the przed rzeczownikami ma sie do slowa "Mass", w znaczneniu "Msza". To jest rzeczownik, wiec czemu sie nie uzywa a/the w wiekszosci przypadkow? Uzywa sie np. w zdaniu "The Mass for the Wedding", ale juz nie "I was at Mass", albo "let's meet after Mass". Jezeli rozmawiaja dwie osoby i kazda z nich wie o jakiej mszy jest mowa, w jakim kosciele to bedzie, dlaczego bedzie zdanie "...after Mass", zamiast "...after the Mass".

    Ma ktos jakis solidny link albo tytul ksiazki? Cos co by pomoglo mi zwalczyc niemoc w tym temacie?
    Wszystkie zrodla wziete z google nie za wiele pomagaja w codziennym uzywaniu jezyka. Sa bardzo ogolne.

    Dziekuje z gory, pozdrawiam
     
  2. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    The rules here are the same as the rules about definite article usage, including the omission of the definite articles in certain constructions related to places. A similar construction will be the one with school. I was in school, for example. The construction without the article is an idiomatic expression. I was in hospital, etc.(meaning I was a patient in a hospital)

    You just have to read a chapter about definite and indefinite articles from a reliable grammar book.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2012
  3. Well, as much as I agree with you, Liliana, I don't think there exists a grammar book which fully covers the subject.
     
  4. Stardusd

    Stardusd Junior Member

    Brazil
    Portuguese-BRAZIL
    Hi! Strzykafka

    We use "the" before the substantive when we refer in particular. Ex: The mass we talked about. The man who killed the dog. And in some cases when we don't do it frequently, for instance> I am going to the church, I am going to the hospital my mother works at.

    We don't use "the" when we refer in general, or we do frequently.
    For instance: Gold is expensive, Iron is cheap.
    And in movement> I go to school everyday, sometimes we drop "to" too, ex: I go school everyday.
    I think this isn't a difficult matter. Any english book will explain this.
    Note- I am not an english speaker but I hope I've helped you.

    My reply is to....Strzykafka #1
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
  5. NotNow Senior Member

    English
    A native speaker would never say I go school everyday. The word to is dropped only when it's used with an indirect object ("I gave the book to him. I gave him the book.")
     
  6. arturolczykowski

    arturolczykowski Senior Member

    Farnham, UK
    Polish
    I think there is an exception in "movement sentences". You don't use "to" with "home" - "I go home".
     
  7. NotNow Senior Member

    English
    I go home doesn''t sound too hot either, but I'm going home and I went home are fine. Are there are any rules concerning this construction?
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
  8. arturolczykowski

    arturolczykowski Senior Member

    Farnham, UK
    Polish


    It all depends on context. I can imagine a conversation that would go like this: 'What do you usually do after work?' 'I go home, have dinner and play computer games'. But you're right, 'I go home' on its own doesn't sound good....
     
  9. Denis555

    Denis555 Senior Member

    Cracóvia, Polônia
    Brazilian Portuguese
  10. Szkot Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    UK English
    Going back to the question, 'the' is certainly omitted in phrases like 'going to mass', but is sometimes used in reference to the ritual itself, or a particular version (the Catholic mass), or a particular musical setting. I would say that it is more common to leave it out, but that there is no firm rule.
     
  11. Strzykafka

    Strzykafka Junior Member

    Austin, TX
    Polish
    Thanks guys for your input

    @Denis555 - thanks for the article, I will read it today.

    So, words like, school, mass, gym, hospital, church, have dropped the/a, when we mean more the action/act/ritual which is connected with these "places"?

    For example, short conversation:
    A: Where have you been yesterday when I tried to call you?
    B: I was at the gym/school...

    I am not sure if there will be "at the hospital"? Sounds weird.

    Anyway, the conversations suggests: these people are friends, probably person A knows what gym or church person B attends. So there is "the" article. It is connected with a place, "I was at...", I was there, I was at the particular place at the particular time when you wanted to reach me on my cell phone, but I couldn't pick it up.





    But, when I am talking not about the specific place, but more about the situation and action which is connected with a place, I would drop "the"?
    In example, like arturolczykowski's example:
    A: What did you do after work? (<--- not "Where have you been", and not "the work" - work, as an action, certain job which requires "doing")
    B: I was at gym/school/church/mass.

    So person B doesn't put attention on the place, but on what was doing. I was at gym. I was working out/I was at school to gain some knowledge...

    Is my thinking going in good direction? I know I am analyzing too much, but I need to understand that to use it properly.



    What about the last example, but:
    I was at church at the mass or I was at church at mass

    I know nobody would say that, but how it would be correct gramaticaly?
     
  12. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I don't think any precise, all-incuding rules exist here. It is better to learn this idomatic usage one phrase at a time. If you drop the definite article, the phrase may mean something else, as in the hospital example.
     

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