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My family - המשפחה שלי / משפחתי

Discussion in 'עברית (Hebrew)' started by Konstantinos, Mar 4, 2014.

  1. Konstantinos

    Konstantinos Senior Member

    Athens, Greece
    Greek - Athens
    Google translate says that "my family" is translated as המשפחה שלי. But then what means :משפחתי?

    If I am male, I say: המשפחה שלי
    If I am famale, I say: המשפחתי שלי

    Or something else?
     
  2. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    משפחתי my family: formal, the way possessives are formed in Biblical Hebrew.
    המשפחה שלי also my family: non-formal, the way possessives are mostly formed in Modern Israeli Hebrew.

    There is no distinction between males and females in possession.
     
  3. Konstantinos

    Konstantinos Senior Member

    Athens, Greece
    Greek - Athens
    Thank you.....
     
  4. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    No. "המשפחה שלי" and "משפחתי" are two ways of saying the same thing. Hebrew has two ways of forming possessives: using "של" (shel) and using the construct state (סמיכות). Forming it with של is much more common in modern Hebrew and the construct state is usually used for fixed or compound words. When using של, you attach the suffix י (-i) to של, forming המשפחה שלי. When using the construct state, you attach the suffix to the construct state of the noun (the construct state of מִשְׁפָּחָה is מִשְׁפַּחַת), forming מִשְׁפַּחְתִּי. You probably should not worry about how to form the construct state until you are more advanced in Hebrew, for now just use של.
     
  5. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    One more thing, משפחתי is also the (male singular) adjectival form of משפחה: "familial".
     
  6. Konstantinos

    Konstantinos Senior Member

    Athens, Greece
    Greek - Athens
    Thank you Drink for your help and your advice. Now I do not understand a thing. I know that family is: משפחה
    I understood the שלי but I do not understand the letter ה in the begin. Why המשפחה שלי and not משפחה שלי?

    Thank you airelibre...
     
  7. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    ה is the definite article "the". You need it because you are saying "the family of mine" not "a family of mine", since you only have one family.
     
  8. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Drink, youre nearly right.

    there are two ways to say possessive words:
    1. one word structure suffix added, denoting to whom the thing is possessed (male female singular plural of the to whom as well as the )

    2. adding he hayedi'a (=the) + original word + של + suffix denoting to whom the thing is attached (male female singular plural)

    המשפחה של:
    שלי
    שלנו
    שלכם
    שלכן
    שלך
    שלו
    שלה
    שלהם
    שלהן


    משפחתי
    משפחתנו
    משפחתו
    משפחתה
    משפחותיכם
    משפחותיכן
    משפחתם
    משפחתן
    משפחותיהם
    משפחותיהן
    משפחתך


    EDIT: drink, again - why do you say that? cant i say אח שלי? of course i can, only here i define this family and not another;
    another idea that i tohught of now is that maybe its due to somech-nismach
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  9. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    Konstantinos, one thing that helped me when first learning about this is to know the origin of the word של and all its forms: שלי שלך etc. ש-means "that" and ל- means "to/for". So literally המשפחה שלי is "the-family that-(is)-to/for-me". This doesn't work all the time in Modern Hebrew, for example the way you say "this is mine" is זה שלי, where you might expect simply זה לי, but it can still be useful to know the origin.
     
  10. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    "אח שלי" means "a brother of mine" (or just "brother of mine" if you are using it as a vocative) and "האח שלי" means "the brother of mine". Which one you use depends on context.
     
  11. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    precisely - you dont have only one brother, simply you point to a specific brother out of many.
     
  12. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    But since people generally have only one family, the contexts in which you would say "המשפחה שלי" are much more common than those in which you would say "משפחה שלי".
     
  13. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    yes, but youre going backwards, it doesnt work like this, mishpakha is an exception, not the other way round.
     
  14. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    When I said "You need it because you are saying 'the family of mine' not 'a family of mine', since you only have one family.", I wasn't giving a general rule. I was explaining why in this case you need "ה".
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  15. Konstantinos

    Konstantinos Senior Member

    Athens, Greece
    Greek - Athens
    I thank everyone. You cannot imagine how much you help me...
     
  16. arbelyoni Senior Member

    Hebrew
    No, according the formal rules of the language (as well as the usual standard "rules" of colloquial Hebrew) a defintie article is added to the noun before the possessive pronoun: הבית שלי (and not בית שלי).
    It makes sense if you consider the origin of the word של, like airelibre wrote.

    אח שלי (as well as some other nouns like אבא, אמא, סבא, סבתא, דוד, בן דוד, חבר) behaves somewhat differently in colloquial Hebrew (but in the formal register האח שלי is still more correct, as weird as it may sound).

    We had a similar discussion two years ago :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  17. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    But if you had several houses and one of them burned down, wouldn't you say "בית שלי נשרף" rather than "הבית שלי נשרף"?
     
  18. tFighterPilot Senior Member

    Israel - Hebrew
    In the case of אבא, אמא, סבא, סבתא, omitting ה הידיעה makes sense, because they're originally from Aramaic where the final א is the definite article. I'm pretty sure it's an academy rule (see לְאבא שלי יש סולם)
     
  19. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    נו באמת, תראה לי מילה אחת שבה יש את ל השימוש וה הידיעה.
     
  20. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    אולי לא ראית את השווא תחת הלמ"ד
     
  21. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    לא משנה איך קוראים ל-ל הזאת, לזו אף פעם לא יכול להצטרף ה הידיעה.

    https://www.safa-ivrit.org/nikud/betkaflamed.php
     
  22. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    אם יש פתח (או קמץ או סגול) תחל ה-ל, זה בגלל ה-ה הידיעה שלא נכתב. אם יש שווא (או חיריק ...), אז יודעים שאין ה הידיעה.
     
  23. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    please read #21 again.
     
  24. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    יש מילים עם ל' וה' הידיעה, אבל הן נדירות ולא תקניות לפי הכללים (זה לא אומר שלא משתמשים בהן): להיום, להשם

    It would be more normal to say אחד מהבתים שלי נשרף.
     
  25. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Then I must have misunderstood what you were looking for in #19.
     
  26. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Wrong use doesnt make it correct, it is not correct to have one of those with he hayedia and thats it.
     
  27. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    There's always more than one way to say things. So is "בית שלי נשרף" wrong or just unusual?
     
  28. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    I commented on his suggestion that the א is the equivalent of ה הידיעה and therefore it makes sense not to have it there, but it does to have ל. its like saying that because we borrowed a word from english and that word is used in a certain manner we have to as well.
    in other words, his argument is invalid (and besides - hebrew tends to make loans a different meaning from the origin).


    unusual
     
  29. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    I understood the part about the א, I just didn't get that you were looking for a word like "להיום", which I didn't even think existed.
     
  30. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    You must admit that it is more common to hear it that way. Eventually the more common usage becomes the "standard", it's just the way language change goes. You wouldn't disagree that "מילים חריגות", is correct, yet I assume originally מילות חריגות (not the סמיכות form but as a femenine-ending word) would have been the standard, and thus with other יוצאי דופן.
     
  31. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Why do you assume that "מילות" was the original? "מִלִּים" is the only form used in the Tanach.
     
  32. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    It is common, its also common to hear one say gal and bro - its not correct and no one would suggest that it would be correct just because everyone use it, would they?

    The difference here is that hebrew is standardized by people in the ivory tower and is affected just as much as it is affecting others.
     
  33. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    because this is an exception, just like we say נשים and not אישות, a חלונות and not חלונים.
     
  34. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    On the contrary, if gal and bro continue to be used a lot (I don't think they are the likeliest candidates - I've never heard anyone say gal in real life) they will become standard.

    This all depends mainly on two factors: how strong an influence the institute governing language has, and if the variant comes to be used a lot by the middle classes.
    For English, there is no leading authority on the language, so it is easier for the language to change as it likes. In Hebrew, I'll let you decide how much influence the Akademia has, but I would say it is marginal.
    As for the middle classes: these have the greatest influence on whether a language innovation will become widespread, as they sit in the middle of the lower classes and the upper classes and are the most populous social sector in developed countries like Israel and most English speaking countries. I believe that להיום is used by almost everybody in everyday speech, so it is likely to be considered standard.
     
  35. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    You're looking at it backwards then. Exceptions are often older than the rules.
     
  36. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    I actually think the akademia has more influence than it is credited for, i have certainly noticed a difference since the law of proper speech has passed in the knesset.

    why of course! but once the rules have been made you shouldnt make such things again.
     
  37. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    What is this "law of proper speech" called in Hebrew? I would like to read about it.
     
  38. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    I don't think anyone suggested doing so.
     
  39. arbelyoni Senior Member

    Hebrew
    I agree with airelibre, that's how I would say it.
    "בית שלי נשרף" is wrong in the formal register and unusual (or at least it sounds lazy) in the colloquial register.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  40. amikama

    amikama sordomodo

    ישראל
    עברית
    Another way to express it would be: בית אחד שלי נשרף.
     

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