na wiosce która dobrze znamy

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by LeTasmanien, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    witam wszystkich!

    Can anzone help with the meaning of these lines which have confused...

    na wiosce która dobrze znamy zagościł błogi spokój zapanował
    do tego stopnia że...

    The best i can do so far is
    "at the village which we know well ..... blissful calmness reigns
    ......"

    Is stopnia related to stopnieć? which is same as topnieć meaning to melt, ebb away

    Thanks. That's a great help
    Phil.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
     
    : top
  2. Szkot Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    UK English
    No, it's the genitive form of the noun stopień.
     
  3. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Thanks.
     
  4. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Hi, LeTasmanian. It is very bad Polish -- not "na wiosce", but we (some say w -- including myself) wiosce. Also the registers are mixed. The first part is in very colloquial Polish, whereas "do tego stopnia" is quite formal. The sentence sounds really awkward.
     
  5. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Thanks LilianaB.
    It's from an Asterix in Britain comic book so I suppose it would be very dubious Polish grammar.
    Phil.
     
  6. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    The only part that sticks out as colloquial is 'na wiosce'.
    It looks as though someone haven't finished writing it, or it's a draft.
    There are two words that mean effectively the same thing, and the author couldn't decide between them:

    na wiosce która dobrze znamy zagościł (zapanował) błogi spokój zapanował (it's out of place)
    At the village we know very well, a blissfull serenity started to reign

    do tego stopnia że...
    to such an extent that...
     
  7. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Yes, I think your version, Dreamlike, is much better, and maybe here, in the stylized sentence, the "na" can somehow fit, but not in the previous sentence. In my opinion "do tego stopnia", is quite literary and formal language, so it would be better to skip it or replace with something else.
     
  8. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    It's not my version, Liliana -- unless you're referring to my English translation. I just took the fragment as it stands from the first post:

    and wanted to point to the fact that 'zapanował' could be used instead of 'zagościł', but it could not be not at the end of sentence -- which led me to believe it's just a draft version. Having read post #5, I know it's just a poorly written story, that has not been proofread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  9. LeTasmanien

    LeTasmanien Senior Member

    Gmina Karczew, Poland
    English British
    Thanks very much dreamlike, LilianaB and Szcot for your replies.
    I am just a beginner in the Polish language. The material I am working through currently is an archaic comic book vintage 1960, originally written in French before being translated to Polish and is full of slang and wordplays.
    It really is totally unfair to throw it at you!
    Dreamlike, the original story was very cleverly written but I can't make any comment about the translation into Polish!
    It may have been hurried and/or unprofessional.
    I am deeply impressed with the level of critical analysis and comment here.
    Obviously I need to choose more serious and substantial material for you guys to work on!
    Thanks again
    Phil.
     
  10. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    As soon as you take some words out from a piece of writing it becomes your version.(it may also become plagiarism, but this is not what I meant here). I was referring only to the Polish text. With your changes, it sounds Ok.
     
  11. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    I know that you have to make do with what you have, but the Polish translation doesn't even appear to have been proofread, so I'd advise against using it to learn Polish.
    We're looking forward to helping you with a more substantial material. You took on quite a challange... I mean studying Polish.

    It was readily apparent that someone forgot to remove the word 'zapanował'. :)
     
  12. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I think the sentence makes sense, and is correct (though, adding correct puctuation wouldn't hurt). It is, of course, incomplete. It may well render the language used in the comic book.
     
  13. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Do you consider na wiosce standrd Polish? Shouldn't it be w wiosce? Why do you think an addition of a totally redundant word (nothing more than a repetition) would be correct?
     
  14. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    They might have used 'na wiosce' for effect, but I doubt it, given the overall quality of the translation.
    'W wiosce' is a normal and standard way of saying it, 'na wiosce' is extremely informal and colloquial in tone.
     
  15. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Before I can address the questions, I need to specify some things:
    What do you mean by standard Polish?

    @ LeTasmanien: Could you please provide a scan of the page where the text appears? If that is not possible Could you please describe the picture with which the text is accompanied and a sentence before and after the one you provided? Have you got access to the source text by any chance?

    I am asking for all this, because having read some stories by Goscinny in Polish, I know that the langugage is very often stylised.
     
  16. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Obviously, I'm not Liliana, but you posed a question that can be answered by virtually anyone. Standard Polish is one spoken by educated people, devoid of regional influences, using constructions and vocabulary which are universally considered 'correct', which 'na wiosce' is not...

    Of course, that alone doesn't mean that I would cross it out, it might be perfect for a stylized piece of writing. I don't think there is a governing body of Polish languge, not that I know of, at least, but were you to ask the PWN experts what they make of 'na wiosce', they would sure write it off as a highly colloquial, non-standard expression, so in this respect, it's not standard Polish. :)
     
  17. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian

    Standard Polish -- the Polish used in prestigious newspapers, magazines, taught in schools, used in academic writing. The kind required to pass any language exams.
     
  18. kknd Senior Member

    Polska / Poland
    polski / Polish
    i'd even say that na wiosce is not only colloquial but belongs to slang… i see some similarity to na mieście (cf. w mieście) which is less objectable (only colloquial) in my opinion but this doesn't seem to be literary polish (standard polish taught in schools).
     
  19. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    OK, thank you all.

    Then, in my opinion, it's not fair to judge this text against the rules of standard Polish. It's a bit like doing the same to a góral. I can't say for 100% that the comic book in question has a stylised language, hence my request to the original poster, but judging from what I've read and watched (e.g. Przygody Mikołajka, Asterix i Obelix: Misja Kleopatra), and the excerpt provided, it is highly probable. These texts are meant to imitate the colloquial Polish represented by certain social strata (this is also present in the French version of Le Petit Nicolas, by the way). Very often, you can find there a plethora of different kinds of Polish adapted to the person and/or circumstances at hand.

    As to the sentence itself:
    I'd write it with different punctuation: Na wiosce, którą dobrze znamy, zagościł błogi spokój, zapanował do tego stopnia że...
    The missing part could be included in the following text or by some other means like a hilarious picture.

    EDIT: Dreamlike, there is such a body, Rada Języka Polskiego has been functioning since 1996.
     
  20. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Thomas, I see your point, but to me the only, say, standard (as I understand it) preposition we would here is 'w wiosce' rather than 'na wiosce', the former being extremely colloquial and therefore fit for the purpose of stylizing the text - indeed, that author might have very well written 'na wiosce' on purpose. Frankly, I see no other explanation.
     
  21. R.O

    R.O Senior Member

    Polish
    Heh, that's curious! I would never say "w wiosce", it sounds bizarre to me. I agree ,though, that "na wiosce" has a slightly informal ring to it. What would I use in a formal context? I think that'd be "na wsi".
     
  22. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I think it should really be we wiosce, according to grammatical rules, but I would say w and many people do the same -- I have noticed, but we is probably the most correct form. According to phonetic rules e is required before w, when we use the w preposition.
     
  23. R.O

    R.O Senior Member

    Polish
    Not really Liliana. We say, for instance, w Wiedniu, not 'we'. Whether e is required or not depends on the word which we put after the preposition and certainly e is not required before w.
     
  24. NotNow Senior Member

    English
    This is not true. We is used before a word that begins with a consonent cluster, such as wrz or czw. Let's not confuse people.
     
  25. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    :eek: Let us be reasonable. Just google 'w wiosce' and see for yourself how many results it yields. There are films, newspaper headlines, books and whatnot that have 'w wiosce' in them.

    W wiosce mieszkało trzydzieści rodzin chłopskich, a nad nimi panował… straszny, bezlitosny głód. (E. Orzeszkowa: Obrazek z lat głodowych)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  26. R.O

    R.O Senior Member

    Polish
    Why would you think I wasn't being serious? Do you expect me - in the light of your post - to change my perception of this expression?
     
  27. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    My post has been tampered with, R.O., I've written 'let us be reasonable', not 'serious'. I see no reason to dismiss 'w wiosce' as sounding bizarre, and find it unreasonable. I had no doubts whatsoever that you were being serious.

    I don't expect you to do anything, you can, of course, make what you will of this phrase, but it's a perfectly fine wording, that has numerous instances in the corpus of the Polish language, which means it's used a lot in press and books :)

    I can't see how this could sound bizzare to anyone, but if it does to you, then so be it, what can I do:

    Polscy sportowcy zadomowili się w wiosce olimpijskiej.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  28. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Yes, you might be right. I thought about it, actually. We wtorek, we czwartek (although many people say w czwartek). We wsi było zimno. (just as an example). W wiosce (because w here is followed by a vowel). Na wsi is correct, whereas w wiosce is usually used in standard Polish, instead of na wiosce. I think it is just a conventional use, no other explanation.
     
  29. R.O

    R.O Senior Member

    Polish
    I first read your post right after you wrote it (only didn't have time to reply at the time); I could swear it was 'serious'...

    Where did I ever state otherwise? :) I only said it sounded bizarre to me. And it does. I'm sure there are many more expressions which sound odd to my ears even though they do appear in the language.

    Strangely enough, this sentence sounds better to me with 'w' than 'we'. I think it depends on the context.
     
  30. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    No, it was 'reasonable' all along. You must have been seeing things! :D Never mind that, though.

    Fair enough. I thought you were trying to infer that there's something wrong 'w wiosce'.

    'We' would be wrong here, since, as NotNow has already noted, 'wioska' does not begin with a consonant cluster.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  31. marco_2 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    So, to sum up:

    we Wrocławiu but: w Warszawie
    we Fromborku
    but: w Falenicy
    They are of course exceptions like we Lwowie (though: w Lwówku), we mnie, we mgle and many others.
    The same is for "z / ze":

    ze Stanów but z Sanoka
    ze Śremu but z Sieniawy
    ze Szczecina
    but z Szanghaju
    ze Zgierza but z Zakopanego,

    There are some exceptions like ze Lwowa, ze łzami, ze mnie, ze mną, ze sobą, although z sobą is also used.

    However, in many Polish dialects only we is used, that's why you can hear *we wodzie ze sokiem*, *we środę* and so on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  32. marco_2 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    P.S. There are of course much more exceptions and fixed phrases I didn't mention, e.g. we say Mam to we krwi, but W krwi pacjenta wykryto śladowe ilości substancji trującej. Some of them you should learn by heart.
     
  33. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Good point :thumbsup:
     
  34. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Interesting, I'd use 'we krwi pacjenta'.
    Also, the following wording comes to mind: Badanie kierowcy wykryło X promili alkoholu we krwi.
    I think I'd use 'w' in a different way: To narzekanie weszło mu w krew, ciągle użala się nad swoim losem.
    Something interesting:
    Well, I thought this had been established earlier on in the disussion.
    Anyway, I hope I didn't suggest it was otherwise.
     

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