need be

Discussion in 'Русский (Russian)' started by yakor, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. yakor Senior Member

    Какая часть речи "need"? И почему? Я думаю-это модальный глагол. Перевод- нужно будет.
    If need be, I will come.
  2. Sincerity Junior Member

    Espagne (España, Spain)
    English - international
    Это устойчивое выражение:

    If needs be, I will come
    If need be, I will come

    Обе формы используются. Это сокращенная версия - "If there is a need,"
    Хотя я никогда не задумался над тем, о какой части речи идет речь здесь, думаю, что это все-таки существительное

    И перевод

    Если необходимо, я приду

    Дословно можно тоже сказать

    Если в этом есть необходимость.....

    Надеюсь, что ответил на ваши вопросы
  3. yakor Senior Member

    Not at all.. :) The translation "Если нужно будет" is more brief and correct.
    I think it is a modal verb, nevetherless. The fact that it could be said as "If needs be" "If need be" says for that. (no article "a" before "need")
    (If it needs to be. If it need be) It is the short of "If it need be done" "If it needs to be done". It is inpersonal clause.
    The same way the adverb "maybe" came from the impersonal clause "it may be".
  4. Sobakus Senior Member

    Если нужно будет is not more correct because it's informal, while "if need be" is formal. Your theory doesn't explain the variant with "need" and the bare infinitive, since only a couple of verbs are followed by bare infinitive and "to need" isn't one of them. The lack of an article is quite common in stable expressions. Although the variant with "needs" shows that native speakers reanalyse it in the same way as yourself.
  5. igusarov

    igusarov Senior Member

    Moscow, Russia
    Существует ещё очень похожее устойчивое выражение с артиклем: "should the need arise". Здесь need - точно существительное: "буде возникнет необходимость".
  6. yakor Senior Member

    But I tell about "if need be". I saw that "need" was followed by the bare infitive in statements. "need" is a modal verb in these cases. И переводиться как "если нужно..", а не "при нужде" или "если нужда будет". Артикль "а" как раз часто используется в устойчивых выражениях.
  7. yakor Senior Member

    Да, тут не поспоришь. Артикль сам за себя говорит.
  8. Sobakus Senior Member

    As am I.
    Don't hesitate to provide some examples.
    Вы всерьёз считаете, что части речи в тексте перевода должны соответствовать частям речи в тексте оригинала?
    Артикль "а" не имеет ни малейшего отношения к устойчивым выражениям.
  9. yakor Senior Member

    Don't hesitate to provide some examples
  10. Sobakus Senior Member

    Утверждение отсутствия не требует доказательств; чтобы доказать мою неправоту, связь между неопределённым артиклем и устойчивыми выражениями придётся показывать вам. А вообще желание поспорить вкупе с напористой хамоватостью, по всей видимости, продолжают оставаться вашими определяющими чертами, поэтому дискуссий с вами я впредь вести не буду. Моя ошибка.
  11. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    “Be” is not a bare infinitive, and “need” is not a modal verb. “Be” is a mostly obsolete subjunctive form of “to be”.
  12. LilianaB Banned

    US New York
    Yes, I agree. "Be" is a subjunctive here: "should there be need".
  13. yakor Senior Member

    I can't understand the present subjunctive mood. It sounds strange to me. It seems that "could", "would" or "should" are absent there.
    If need be = If need should be? How did "the present subjunctive" arise? By transposing words and displacinig these verbs?
  14. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    The genuine subjunctive mood in English does not involve the modal verbs like should, would, etc, but as it was said before, the genuine subjunctive mood is almost extinct in English. Instead the genuine subjunctive mood English, and other languages too, use subjunctive constructions. English uses often should + conditional, while the Slavic languages use constructions of the type "chto by + past tense".
    You can read more about it here:
  15. yakor Senior Member

    Yes,but it doesn't help me understand present subjunctive arising. (I have no questions about the past subjunctive, we use it too)
    The sentense,"She demanded he resign" seems strange to me. It seems to me that some verb is absent between "he" and "resign".
  16. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    No one speaks like this nowadays, there are only certain verbs, like be that can be used in the subjunctive mood in contemporary English. The mood is only used in certain fossilized expressions like "if need be".
    Have you read the article in Wikipedia, by the way?
  17. LilianaB Banned

    US New York
    Past subjunctive -- ""if it were to be needed". "Should this have ever been needed". They are used mostly in legal language, so don't worry about them too much.

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