1. The WordReference Forums have moved to new forum software. (Details)

nicht dem viel gegossen wird, sondern der Gegossene

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Löwenfrau, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Hello, I'm not sure if my understanding of the expressions in blue are correct:

    "Unsrer dogmatischen Sprachwissenschaft liegt es näher, Gott mit einer Sanskritwurzel in Zusammenhang zu bringen, als mit dem deutschen Worte Götze. Man knüpft an sansk.hu an, die Wurzel für opfern, anrufen, und gibt zwei verschiedene Etymologien, als ob nicht offenbar opfern und anrufen nur zwei verschiedene Übersetzungen oder Kulturstufen der gleichen Handlung wären. Gott (sansk. huta, got. guþa) soll danach heißen: der viel angerufen wird, dem viel geopfert wird. Nach meiner Vermutung wäre die letzte Erklärung nur grammatisch zu ändern; nicht dem viel gegossen wird, sondern der Gegossene." (mauthner)

    I think he means:

    not the one of whom images are casted (by foundry), but (rather) the [object itself which has been] casted (by foundry).

    So to say: the first one is God, the second one the idol itself, the object.

    But I'm not sure if this interpretation is going in the right direction... And I don't know either whether the expressions sound odd to me because it's a very German way to speak, or a very Mauthner way to speak... or both...

    :confused:
     
  2. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    ... not he in whose honour much is cast but he who is cast.
     
  3. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Your version sounds better, but I have the feeling that it indicates in both cases God himself is meant.
     
  4. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    Do you really think so?

    dem viel gegossen wird is not of whom images are cast but to whom (which I rendered as in whose honour) much is cast, in analogy to (who is much invoked and) to whom​ much is sacrificed.
     
  5. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Mauthner is playing with the two meanings of “giessen”: primarily “to pour” (a liquid), secondarily to “cast” (molten metal). He is arguing that the Gothic past participle guþa does not mean “the one to whom libations are poured” ("dem viel geopfert wird"), but “the poured (cast) one”.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
  6. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I had understand that, and that's why I said that your version sounds better than mine (more correctly, actually).
    What I meant is that the second expression, der Gegossene, if translated as 'he who is cast' sounds more like God himself than the idol of God. This things can be very confusing!
     
  7. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I dont see if what you're saying distinguishes from what Schimmelreiter said.
    Anyway, to me it seems that he is playing more with the distinction God X idol [image] of God than with the twoo meanings of gießen - which in this context are more like two aspects of the same meaning.
     
  8. bearded man

    bearded man Senior Member

    Milan
    Italian
    In my opinion, there is no essential contradiction between fdb's and schimmelr.'s points of view: These are two definitions of God, based on the Gothic etymolgy: He is not to be defined as the one in whose honour..,but directly as the (poured) cast one. Without the double meaning of 'gießen', the sentence cannot be understood. Therefore I think that a satisfactory translation into a language other than German is not possible, and in Portuguese there should be an explanatory remark at the page bottom.
     
  9. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Oh I see how tricky that is!
    Thank you all for helping and advising.
     
  10. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I still wonder one thing: you think that the first phrase, "dem viel gegossen wird", means "dem viel geopfert wird" only in the sense "the one to whom libations are poured”, or you think it can also mean "the one to whom idols are poured”? If the second possibility is also considerable, then he might be talking about the difference (with which he doesn't agree thou) between the god himself and his idol. I don't know if I'm exposing my doubt very clearly... ?
     
  11. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    I understand your point, but I do not think it can mean "the one to whom idols are poured". You do not pour idols "to" a god; the eidolon (the Greek word is cognate with videre) is the visible image of the deity him/herself.
     

Share This Page