no divisions of class or hierarchy through the organisation

Discussion in 'Русский (Russian)' started by bodryachkom, Nov 6, 2013.

  1. bodryachkom Junior Member

    Moscow
    Russian
    Dear all,

    please help me understand the structure of a phrase below:

    …the communist ideology, which is the ideology of society, as it aspires to the realisation of a community of free and equal men, with no divisions of class or hierarchy through the organisation of State power.does "no divisions" apply to "hierarchy" as well as to "class" or to "class" only?

    Does "through" relate to the "realization" or to anything else?

    My try is:
    коммунистическая идеология, являющаяся идеологией общества, поскольку она стремится к созданию не имеющего классовых различий и иерархии сообщества свободных и равных людей через (посредством?) организацию государственной власти


    Заранее большое спасибо,
    И.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2013
  2. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    …the communist ideology, which is the ideology of society, as it aspires to the realization of a community of free and equal men, with no divisions of class or hierarchy, through the organisation of State power.

    First of all, the sentnece lacks a comma after hierarchy.

    I understand the sentence in the following way:

    1. The communist ideology aspires to the realization of a community of free and equal men.
    2. The community of free and equal men shall have no divisions of class or hierarchy
    3. The community of free and equal men shall be achieved (realized) through the organisation of State power

    And here is my proposal of the modified sentence:
    коммунистическая идеология, является идеологией общества, поскольку она стремится к созданию сообщества свободных и равных людей, не имеющего классовых различий ни иерархии, через организацию государственной власти

    or:
    коммунистическая идеология, является идеологией общества, поскольку она стремится, через организацию государственной власти, к созданию сообщества свободных и равных людей, не имеющего классовых различий ни иерархии,
     
  3. learnerr Senior Member

    Russian
    Ещё одна группировка: divisions of class отдельно, hierarchy through organisation of State power отдельно. По-моему, логично: нужно ведь сказать, что такое иерархия и откуда она берётся. Необходим больший контекст. Книгу я нашёл, но место что-то не находится.

    PS: cross-posted.
     
  4. bodryachkom Junior Member

    Moscow
    Russian
    полный контекст таков:

    Fascism was mainly the ideology of the State, whose reality it affirmed to be fundamental and totalitarian. And, as such, it represented the antithesis of communist ideology, whichis the ideology of society, as it aspires to the realisation of a community of free and equal men, with no divisions of class or hierarchy through the organisation of State power


     
  5. learnerr Senior Member

    Russian
    В таком случае, я думаю, моя группировка правильная. Автор говорит, что коммунизм и State power, из-за которой возникает иерархия, а не равенство людей, — вещи несовместимые.
     
  6. bodryachkom Junior Member

    Moscow
    Russian
    то есть, без классовых различий и без порожденной властью иерархичности?
     
  7. learnerr Senior Member

    Russian
    Да, я думаю так. И, соответственно, без той части Вашего перевода, которая после "через" идёт.
     
  8. bodryachkom Junior Member

    Moscow
    Russian
    Спасибо!

     
  9. Colora Junior Member

    USA, Denver, CO
    Byelorussian
    I tried to translate this passage. Is it helpful?

    ....коммунистической идеологии, которая является идеологией общества, стремящегося к реализации (построению) общности свободных и равноправных людей, с отсутствием классовых либо иерархических (должностных и ранговых) различий, благодаря организации государственной власти.
     
  10. learnerr Senior Member

    Russian
    I think it is. It helps to see that such variant of interpretation is meaningless. :)
     
  11. Colora Junior Member

    USA, Denver, CO
    Byelorussian
    Please, show me your smart idea.
     
  12. learnerr Senior Member

    Russian
    Nothing smart actually, see your own clarification in the brackets: "с отсутствием классовых либо иерархических (должностных и ранговых) различий, благодаря организации государственной власти". Have you ever seen a state without ranked officials?
     
  13. Colora Junior Member

    USA, Denver, CO
    Byelorussian
    Ewww! May be you're right and there is something I need to review.
     
  14. Colora Junior Member

    USA, Denver, CO
    Byelorussian
    May be правящей власти?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  15. learnerr Senior Member

    Russian
    Isn't power the very essence of State? There is no change if we just hide the word "государственный". Besides, the original clearly states that the power in question is 'State power'.
     
  16. Colora Junior Member

    USA, Denver, CO
    Byelorussian
    I know, I jumped the gun again. I tried to delete, but it doesn't do anything!
     
  17. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    I insist on my interpretation:
    1. The communist ideology aspires to the realization of a community of free and equal men.
    2. The community of free and equal men shall have no divisions of class or hierarchy
    3. The community of free and equal men shall be achieved (realized) through the organisation of State power


     
  18. learnerr Senior Member

    Russian
    Why?
     
  19. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    Because I believe it is the correct one.
     
  20. learnerr Senior Member

    Russian
    Any argumentation? See, I provided already two arguments, it's not to mention your own argument about the comma (the most logical way to read books is to read as they are written, and if there is no comma, it means that one is not supposed to be there, that's for ease of reading). If you want to, I shall retell them, of course.
     
  21. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    A comma is an issue of style, not grammar in English, and many people writing in English don't use commas, even if they should, to make their texts more clear and unambiguous.

    Your interpretation seems very unnatural to me, and what you call arguments seems to me to be pure guessing.
    Why do you separate "divisions of class" from "hierarchy"?

    My interpretation is based on knowledge and understanding of communist ideology, which I experienced personally both by being taught at school and in practical life.
     
  22. learnerr Senior Member

    Russian
    They are two same-level concepts that work in the same way: they both, as we can suppose, lead to inequality of people. So, when describing a society without said inequality, it is natural to list them two, separating them with the word "and".
    Again "seems". How are you going to discover the meaning of the text, if not by examining its logic? Certainly not in the "I-know-what-is-written-before-I-read-anything" style.
    Words-words-words. This is the fourth argument to bring: communism does presuppose elimination of state. The whole problem of the communists was that they somehow thought they could get to stateless society through a period of empowering the state. Illogical as it is, it does not refer to their ultimate goal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013

Share This Page