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notwithstanding the foregoing

Discussion in 'English Only' started by Legal Mumbo Jumbo, May 7, 2007.

  1. Legal Mumbo Jumbo New Member

    us
    This phrase is in many legal documents. What is its meaning if there is contradictory language that preceeds this statement? For example: You have permission to walk on my land. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may walk on my land if you wear long pants.
     
  2. dobes Senior Member

    bratislava, slovakia
    US English(Boston/NY)
    It means: Even though what I just said is true, this other thing is also independently true.
     
  3. nzattitude Junior Member

    New York
    New Zealand English
    Hi

    I think you missed a not or no, in the above example. But anyway.

    "Notwithstanding" means "despite". "foregoing" means "preceding" or "above".

    What it means is that what comes after the word "Notwithstanding" prevails if there is a conflict with what goes before.

    Interestingly (or not) legal documents sometimes use "Provided that" to start a proviso in a similar way - though I prefer "unless" as in
    "You must not walk on my land, unless you wear long pants" or "You must not walk on my land, Provided that you may walk on my land if you wear long pants"
     
  4. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    Welcome to the forums, LMJ. (nice name!)

    It's just as dobes said. There are two statements. Each is independently valid. The second one may appear to be invalidated by the first, but it does have validity.

    Your example doesn't illustrate this.

    For example: You have permission to walk on my land. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may walk on my land if you wear long pants.

    Let's change it so that it does:

    Permission to walk on my land is withheld. Notwithstanding the foregoing, law officers may walk on my land if they are wearing long pants, and are acting in accord with their legal rights and duties.


    Here is a 'live one'.

    In plainer English, the law generally forbids sales of booze after 1AM. There is an exception: if you have a permit and give a copy to the Director of the Office of....you may sell booze from 1AM to 2AM.
     
  5. dobes Senior Member

    bratislava, slovakia
    US English(Boston/NY)
    Yes, that is what I was trying to say:

    1) You may walk on my land. 2) Even though you have permission to walk on my land, you must wear long pants when you walk on my land.

    1) No one can sell liquor between 1 and 8 AM. 2) Even though no one can sell liquor between 1 and 8 AM, people with a special permit may sell malt liquor from 1 to 2 AM.
     
  6. Legal Mumbo Jumbo New Member

    us
    Okay, here is a more specific example that paraphrases my predicament:

    1. You may walk across my land from the corner fence post to the apple tree.

    2. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may walk across my land from the corner fence post to the apple tree to the big rock only if you build a shed for my horse.

    I would like to interpret "notwithstanding the foregoing" as "despite anything to the contrary". If that it the case, then one could not walk across any of the land until a shed is built.
     
  7. anothersmith Senior Member

    Los Angeles
    English, U.S.
    "Notwithstanding the foregoing" simply means "despite what was just said."

    In other words, it's a way of introducing an exception.

    It's an example of "legalese" (which, as a lawyer, I speak but hate).
     
  8. Legal Mumbo Jumbo New Member

    us
    If you use the interpretation of "despite what was just said", then my example would be interpreted as; no access whatsoever until a shed is built.

    This example is paraphrasing an actual easement regarding public access onto our property.
     
  9. dobes Senior Member

    bratislava, slovakia
    US English(Boston/NY)
    I am also a lawyer, and I avoid legalese whenever possible -- and judges and even opposing attorneys have on occasion thanked me for this! Why not just say, 'You may walk across my property from Point A to Point B on condition that you first build a shed for my horse!"

    But, of course, that is not how your easement is worded. If it is worded the way you say, I think you may be justified in interpreting it as: 1) You have the right to cross my property. 2) Even though you have the right to cross my property, that right is contingent on your building a shed for my horse.

    That said, without a clear time relationship between the building of the shed and the beginning of the right to cross the property.... Well, I think you could make a case for 'You can't cross my property until you build the shed', but I think there's also a case for 'You can cross my property, but you owe me a horse shed.'
     
  10. legalbegal New Member

    English
    I would like to get some clarification on "notwithstanding" included in the following law

    F. Notwithstanding this chapter, a condominium association shall comply with title 33, chapter 9 and a planned community association shall comply with title 33, chapter 16 to the extent that this chapter is inconsistent with title 33, chapters 9 and 16.

    Does this mean that Title 33 chapter 16 is not covered under this law?

    or does it mean that it aplies to both laws? and that Title 33 chapter 16 must also include the provision of this law?

    Arizona Revised Statute Title 10-11601 and A.R.S. Title 33-1804.

    the main concern is - Is a Homeowners Association required to keep minutes the same as any other corporation?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  11. Parla Senior Member

    New York City
    English - US
    Yours is a legal, not language question; it needs to be answered by an attorney familiar with Arizona law.
     
  12. dobes Senior Member

    bratislava, slovakia
    US English(Boston/NY)
    Whoever wrote that should be sentenced to writing rehab. One of the many problems with your passage is the use of the word "shall". I teach my students to avoid it whenever possible, as it can mean "must" or "may" or "will" or a few other things, and sometimes its meaning is not clear from the context. Here, I am going to interpret your "shall"s as "must"s to make the meaning clearer. In that case, it would mean: "First of all, and most importantly, a condominium association must comply with title 33, chapter 9, and a planned community association must comply with title 33, chapter 16. Then, they must also comply with any part of this chapter that isn't contradicted by chapters 9 and 16. They may ignore any part of this chapter that is contradicted by anything in chapter 9 or chapter 16."
     

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