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nuntio or nuncio?

Discussion in 'Lingua Latina (Latin)' started by Nucleara, Jun 24, 2014.

  1. Nucleara

    Nucleara Senior Member

    I'm confused by this word, is it nuntio or nuncio ? (the verb that means to announce, report)
    I've looked up in the dictionary and the same meaning came out.

    Thank you so much.
     
  2. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    High Navarre
    Spanish-Navarre
    My dictionary says that only nuntio is correct, and labels nuncio as incorrect.
     
  3. Scholiast

    Scholiast Senior Member

    Reading, UK
    English - UK
    Salvete omnes

    It may be worth adding to Agró's remark (# 2) that the confusion arises from the development in vulgar, late classical and mediaeval Latin of the phonological equivalence of t and c before i in particular. This has enduring relics in (for example) the orthography of words in legacy languages (including, for the purpose of the present discussion, English) such as "pronunciation", Fr. annonce(r), and of course all those abstract nouns such as Lat. providentia, iustitia, scientia, which generate modern derivatives such as "providence", "justice", "science".

    The confusion, if that is what it is, is not helped by the fact that a nuncio is an emissary from the Pope, so designated because it is the (early?) modern Italian for Latin nuntius, "messenger".

    I hope this helps.

    Σ
     
  4. Nucleara

    Nucleara Senior Member

    Thank you so much Agró and Scholiast.
     
  5. wandle

    wandle Senior Member

    London
    English - British
    Lewis & Short's Latin Dictionary under the letter T has the following:
    For nuntio, the spelling nunc- is shown as an alternative.

    That seems to say that for the Romans, both spelliings were valid. However, the spelling with t is now seen as the usual one.
     
  6. Nucleara

    Nucleara Senior Member

    This makes it clear. Thank you so much wandle!
     
  7. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    I suppose it depends which Romans you mean. Your quotation of Lewis & Short ended a bit prematurely:
    If — as I believe to be very likely — Nucleara is focusing on the Classical Latin of the Golden Age, the only acceptable form is nuntio.
     
  8. wandle

    wandle Senior Member

    London
    English - British
    The full paragraph reads:
    The point being made by L&S is that the sibilant pronunciation is a late phenomenon, unknown in the golden age (classical period).

    Nucleara's question, however, is about the spelling. L&S do not give us any clear dating for that. They point out that the origin of the sibilant pronunciation is earlier than the seventh century, because the spelling with c is found in older inscriptions. No date is given for 'older inscriptions'. This vague expression could in principle refer to any period before the seventh century, from very early, pre-classical times onwards.

    Thus I was not, and still am not, clear when the spelling with c was first used. It may have existed in pre-classical inscriptions, but not have been used in the classical period: and then have come back into favour in later Latin. In such a case, I conclude that the Romans of Cicero's time would have recognised both spellings, even though they normally used only that with t. The fact that L&S under nuntio recognise the alternative spelling nunc- would be consistent with that. This provisional conclusion is what I was trying to encapsulate in my simpler, though guarded, comment above.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  9. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    According to Lindsay, "[t]he earliest examples date from the second cent. A. D." (p. 88) but sibilant pronunciation of "ti" was not established until the 5th century (p. 82).
    L&S covers several distinct periods of Latin, and the variant forms it gives do not always come with full chronological indications. I notice also that they cite no textual examples of the ci- spelling. You will find many things in L&S that Cicero would not have recognized as valid.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  10. wandle

    wandle Senior Member

    London
    English - British
    Well, unlike L&S, this does give an apparent date for the appearance of the spelling with c (C2 A.D.), though, since the focus is on pronunciation, it is not entirely explicit.
    How true.
    Of course you will; and it is hardly surprising, when you consider the time span covered.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  11. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    On the other side, in Modern English the noun condition is written with -ti-, the correct form would be condicion (from the Latin verb condico, condicere 'to agree'). The Latin word conditio means 'seasoning, spice' (from the verb condio, condire 'to season, to balm').
     
  12. Scholiast

    Scholiast Senior Member

    Reading, UK
    English - UK
    Salvete amici!

    (Bibax #11)

    This is surely doubly wrong. First, the English spelling condicion is known in some texts of the Reformation or Elizabethan periods (perhaps later too).

    Secondly, the word is derived from the supine root of Lat. condo, condere, condidi, conditum, and has nothing to do with condiments or any other kind of seasoning, nor with condicere, the English abstract noun from which would be "condiction".

    Σ
     
  13. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    If you mean that the Latin word condicio (English equivalent written condition instead of the older more accurate spelling condicion) is derived from the verb condo, condere, conditum, then you are surely wrong. Condicio is derived from the verb condīco, condīcere, condictum. I don't know why there was no *condictio in Latin.

    sub condicione certa = under certain condition;
    condicio sine qua non;

    The Latin word condītio has another meaning and is derived from condio, condīre, condītum (stressed ī - 4th conj.):

    ciborum conditiones;
    conditio frugum;


    Some Latin derivations from the verb condo, condere, cónditum (unstressed i - 3rd conj.):

    conditivum (grave), conditor (founder), conditorium (repository, coffin), but no *conditio from this verb in Latin;
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  14. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    Actually, there was: condictio.
    Actually (in later Latin): condĭtio.

    You are correct, however, about condition replacing the etymological form condicion (< condicio).
     

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