O erre duplo

Discussion in 'Português (Portuguese)' started by jonquiliser, Dec 11, 2007.

  1. jonquiliser

    jonquiliser Senior Member

    Headquarters
    Svediż tal-Finlandja
    Olá!

    Desculpen se já se tivesse perguntado, resultou-me raro mas não encontrei nada sobre o tema no fórum.

    A minha dúvida se refere à letra erre dobre (é assim que se diz?). Pensava que se pronúncia mais ou menos como o iota espanhol, mais escuitando Dulce Pontes canta "terra" com um erre 'francês', parece-me (como em "Paris"). É isso o comúm en Portugal?

    Obrigada!
     
  2. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Pode dizer "erre duplo" ou "duplo erre", embora não seja muito habitual, parece-me. Não se considera uma letra.

    A pronúncia do rr varia bastante com os dialectos, e mesmo de pessoa para pessoa. Tivemos algumas discussões sobre isto aqui no fórum, mas para já remeto-a para a Wikipedia.
     
  3. jonquiliser

    jonquiliser Senior Member

    Headquarters
    Svediż tal-Finlandja
    Estupendo, muito obrigada!
     
  4. avok

    avok Senior Member

    Yes, in Portuguese portuguese the "rr" is pronounced like French r. All the speakers on RTP have this pronunciation.

    In Brazil it is pronounced either like English "h", or like French "r" or in between or like German harsh "ch".

    The only Portuguese accent that's got Spanish "rr" for the "rr" in Portuguese seems to be the African accents. (some of them have French r though, as they immitate, I guess, European Portuguese.)
     
  5. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    There is not a unique French "r". The Parisian "r" is supposedly a trill, whereas the Portuguese rarely pronounce "rr" as a trill (it's a fricative for most of us). Still, the two sounds are similar...

    Not true! Pay more attention.

    They have as much right to "imitate" us as we do to "imitate" them, which, if you put it that way, some of us do.
     
  6. avok

    avok Senior Member

    Why are you so upset, Outsider?
     
  7. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I am not upset, I just don't like the way you presented the facts. Are the Africans "imitating" us? In a sense, they are, but then again why did the French-like "r" spread in Portugal, in the first place? Because we "imitated" each other. Every new change that happens in a language spreads through imitation. It's a linguistic fact of life.
     
  8. Jeromed Banned

    USA, English
    I've never heard rr pronounced as English h in Brazil, although in the southeastern states it's often pronounced similar to an American r.

    Not true. I've heard if often in Sao Paulo (city) and in Rio Grande do Sul. Not quite the same sound, though (The Spanish rr sound varies across the Spanish-speaking world, anyway).
     
  9. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I've read in various sources that the Brazilian "rr" can indeed be pronounced as an [h], and I'm pretty convinced that I've heard it pronounced that way.

    The American-"r" pronunciation is regarded as regional.
     
  10. Jeromed Banned

    USA, English
    OK. I've just never heard it, or haven't noticed.

    Yes, it's used mostly in Paraná and in the interior of SP state, which adds up to a total of about 20 million speakers*! It's not considered a prestige pronunciation by the Carioca and Paulistana elites.

    *My hasty estimate
     
  11. Alandria Senior Member

    Brasil - São Paulo
    Português
    :thumbsup:
     
  12. uchi.m

    uchi.m Senior Member

    Redeeming limbo
    Brazil, Portuguese
    Eu sempre chamei rr de erre-erre, mas não sei dizer se é correto assim.
     
  13. uchi.m

    uchi.m Senior Member

    Redeeming limbo
    Brazil, Portuguese
    Your estimate is already fairly good, but it appears you forget part of MG and GO states, so that the real amount would be over 30 million people.
     
  14. MOC Senior Member

    Portugal
    Portuguese
    Those generalizations aren't completely accurate. I've heard at least three different ways of pronouncing it, and that's without needing to search anywhere.
    The spanish "r" isn't the most common, but I know enough people who pronounce it that way to make it count.
    And there's also Uvular trills and the most common fricatives.

    And, I've also heard the "x" sound (velar) for "rr" although this one is rare in Portugal.
     
  15. MOC Senior Member

    Portugal
    Portuguese
    Eu chamo-lhe o "dois erres" e ao "ss", o "dois esses" mas tenho noção que a minha forma de tratamento é muito primária. :D
     
  16. Ricardo Tavares Senior Member

    Português - Brasil
    Interessante.... para o caso de rr, eu digo erre-erre, mas para ss, eu digo também dois esses.

    Igualmente, entendo que o som do rr (carro) é bem parecido com o "h" do inglês em palavras como "hot", "house", "hospital", etc. Mas, não é o caso do espanhol.
     
  17. avok

    avok Senior Member

    Brazilians definitely pronounce "rr" as English "h", I am not going to bail out so easily on that one. The Brazilian "rr" as "h" is the first mark of a brazilian accent. That's why when Brazilians speak French they pronounce the French word "rien" as "hien"(and I heard enough brazilians speaking French) and the brazilian word for "terra" is "teha" but I hear French r sometimes when I listen to some Brazilians. Especially those from Rio. They certainly have some kind of French R that also sounds a bit like harsh "h" (the German harsh ch) so "terra" becomes "texa" or teRa" or whatever mostly in between.
    Elis Regina has French "r" when she sings, the one that sounds like "rrrrrrr" or "RRRRR" . But Maria Bethania has a harsh "h" like the German "ch". Caetano tends to have "h" in a more standard way.

    Believe me I know that. Read this
    So which Brazil are you talking about ? Is it in our world? Then how do Brazilians pronounce the word "terra"?


    I did not understand any of this sorry it is beyond my IQ. I must be so stupid to understand the way you presented the facts. Or you just dont like a non-native speaker to talk about your language. I can understand that though.

    Yes...... because they are "general"izations. There are of course always exceptions but I am not an expert on Portuguese dialectology. If you know more you can always help jonquiliser.


    people who think my generalizations are not accurate, people who think I patronize them about their mother tongue, people who "never" heard "h" in Brazilian Portuguese. You can all read this quotes from Wikipedia. I know you all love Wikipedia (more than I do) believe me I did not write Wikipedia.

    Now go on ...
     
  18. Kakeru New Member

    Japan
    Brazil
    Eu sempre usei "dois erres" pra rr e "dois esses" pra ss.
     
  19. Vanda

    Vanda Moderesa de Beagá

    Belo Horizonte, BRASIL
    Português/ Brasil
    I do. I say teha, hien, Hio, Hegina...
     
  20. jazyk Senior Member

    Brno, Česká republika
    Brazílie, portugalština
    Not all Brazilians. Why don't we just live and let live?
     
  21. MOC Senior Member

    Portugal
    Portuguese

    We don't have a problem with you discussing portuguese. There's a bunch of non-native portuguese speakers in this forum whose input is always appreciated because we know they have a good knowledge of the language. The thing is you're saying everyone in a country of 10/12 million people (in the case of Portugal) speaks a certain way. With Brazil would obviously be even harder to make such a generalization since São Paulo alone has about the same population as Portugal.


    What we were refuting is the conclusive way you presented the facts:

    "Yes, in Portuguese portuguese the "rr" is pronounced like French r. All the speakers on RTP have this pronunciation.
    ...
    The only Portuguese accent that's got Spanish "rr" for the "rr" in Portuguese seems to be the African accents.
    "

    Sentences such as this one will make any foreigner who reads it assume that EVERY portuguese speaks like that. That would mean for example, that my aunt isn't portuguese, despite the fact she has barely ever left the country. She isn't african either and that doesn't take away the fact that her "r" is the spanish one.

    "In Brazil it is pronounced either like English "h", or like French "r" or in between or like German harsh "ch"."

    Nobody is denying that those phonemes or at least approximants of those are common in Brazil, but you present it in such a way that any foreigner who hasn't had much contact with BP, would think those are the only ways the "r" could ever be said in Brazil.


    Another thing, I never said you were wrong. I said "your generalizations aren't completely accurate", that's the way I put it. While your way to present facts is closer to this: "Brazilians definitely pronounce "rr" as English "h"," Do you really think 180 million people talk the exact same way? ; or even this one: "The Brazilian "rr" as "h" is the first mark of a brazilian accent." Just because it's the first mark for you, doesn't mean it is the first mark (for everyone else), period. For me for example it's easier to identify a Brazilian by the way the "l" in the end of a syllable is pronounced. It doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else, but for me it is.

    Nobody here wants you to stop taking part of the discussions in the portuguese forum, unlike your conspiracy theory seems to suggest "Or you just dont like a non-native speaker to talk about your language.". As I said before, we have a bunch of non-native speakers in the portuguese forum and I can say there are a few in here who I'd rather talk to about the language, than to most native speakers in my own country.

    However, overgeneralizations and stereotypes are never good, no matter how you look at it, and that's what I was trying to avoid.


    And just to end my post:

    You posted this below,

    Originally Posted by avok [​IMG]
    Yes, in Portuguese portuguese the "rr" is pronounced like French r.


    To what Outsider replied with:

    "There is not a unique French "r". The Parisian "r" is supposedly a trill, whereas the Portuguese rarely pronounce "rr" as a trill (it's a fricative for most of us). Still, the two sounds are similar..."


    He admitted the similiraties between the two "r" only explaining there's more than one french "r" and that the Parisian "r" is a trill (something I for one wouldn't know) while the "rr" is a fricative for most portuguese people.

    And then you posted this out of wikipedia:

    "The French language is perhaps the most well-known example of a language with a guttural rhotic, to the extent that this pronunciation is widely stereotyped. In the standard dialect of Paris, it is pronounced as a trill (IPA: [ʀ]), while in most of the rest of northern France it is pronounced as a voiced ([ʁ]) or voiceless uvular fricative ([÷])."


    Where does it refutes what Outsider wrote previously? Judging by that wikipedia article you posted, french does indeed have more than one phoneme for "r", and the parisian dialect does have a trill sound for "r".

    Or was it directed towards another poster?
     
  22. Jeromed Banned

    USA, English
    I am an American who lived several years in Brazil, used to be married to a Brazilian, and is fluent in Portuguese (with little or no accent, according to many native Brazilians).

    Although I'm just an amateur when it comes to phonetics, I have a good ear and will dare say that:

    1. Not a single Brazilian pronounces his/her rr's as if it were an American h (if they think they do, they're mistaken).
    2. Most Brazilians cannot pronounce an American h and not sound foreign.

    To me the sound is similar but not the same. My ex-wife, who is a Paulistana, pronounces her double rr's like (what is known as) a French r. Her mother, who is old-school, uses a sound very close to Spanish rr.

    Again, these are just personal impressions, and not to be taken as dogma.
     
  23. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Thanks for the support, MOC, but I after some thinking I came to the conclusion that I was being too harsh with Avok. :thumbsup:

    I did not mean to imply that at all, and I apologize if my reply to you yesterday offended you. :eek:
     
  24. maralto Senior Member

    Portugal portugês
    Creio que é correcto dizer: R duplo ou S duplo...

    Mas por que razão tantos Rs e Fs (lembram-se disto?) por causa do R??? é apenas uma letrinha!
     
  25. jonquiliser

    jonquiliser Senior Member

    Headquarters
    Svediż tal-Finlandja
    Oh, I didn't realise this would be so controversial :rolleyes:

    I didn't mean for you to tell me "how Portuguese speak", I was just wondering about common tendencies. R is among the letter with most variation in pronounciation anyway. Thank you all for your input :)
     
  26. Vanda

    Vanda Moderesa de Beagá

    Belo Horizonte, BRASIL
    Português/ Brasil
    JQr I am still trying to understand why every time we begin to discuss pronunciation we lose our heads. Subject for a thesis, hein? Well, we had another loooooooooong discussion about the letter R in this thread. As you can see in the end we are discussing the same things over and over again.
     
  27. jazyk Senior Member

    Brno, Česká republika
    Brazílie, portugalština
    Exactly, that's why I said Live and let live.
     
  28. MOC Senior Member

    Portugal
    Portuguese

    Thanks for the link to that thread Vanda. I had lost a link Outsider had shown in that thread and was looking for it for a long time. Tá favoritado. :D
     
  29. jonquiliser

    jonquiliser Senior Member

    Headquarters
    Svediż tal-Finlandja
    Hehe, so it seems ;) Thanks for the link, I'm heading there now :)
     

Share This Page