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O uso do infinitivo pessoal

Discussion in 'Português (Portuguese)' started by hoosierhick317, Aug 28, 2007.

  1. hoosierhick317 Junior Member

    Indiana, USA
    USA, English
    Não entendo por que o infinitivo pessoal é preciso. Me parece que pode usar o subjuntivo para dizer a mesma coisa, né?

    Por exemplo:
    "É melhor nós irmos embora" = "É melhor que nós vamos embora" (presente do subjuntivo)

    "Foi melhor eles terem voltado cedo" = "Foi melhor que eles tivessem voltado cedo" (imperfeito do subjuntivo)


    Eu não estou dizendo que não deveriamos usar o infinitivo pessoal- só que eu não entendo porque é preciso. Eu estou perguntando porque o subjuntivo me parece mais fácil do que o infinitivo pessoal. Talvez, se um falante nativo de ingles me pudesse dar um equivalente em ingles, me ajudaria a entender. Se vcs pudessem me ajudar, eu seria muito grato. Obrigado pela ajuda. :)
     
  2. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Não é "preciso", mas é como as pessoas falam. :)

    Quando os dois são possíveis, o subjuntivo soa excessivamente formal.

    Só que as frases da direita são mais formais.

    Depois de se habituar ao infinitivo pessoal, pode até começar a preferi-lo. Não tem tempos...
     
  3. Jeromed Banned

    USA, English
    I'm with Outsider. The personal infinitive is a fact of life in Portuguese, like it or not. Native speakers usually prefer it to the subjunctive. And that's that.
     
  4. spielenschach Senior Member

    Portugal . Portuguese
  5. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
    I find this extra mood in Portuguese rather taxing :( I always think I sound retarded when I use it.

    From what I learned there is no proper English equivalent, but you just learn it as 'possessive pronoun + -ing'.

    Eg: ' é melhor nos irmos' = 'our going is better'. Granted, an awful translation, but it helps me to understand the principle. Hope that was of help!
     
  6. Archimec Senior Member

    Montreal, Canada
    Portugal, portuguese
    'é melhor (nós) irmos' não poderia ser traduzido por 'we better go' ?
     
  7. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
    Yes, I made an inaccurate translation to demonstrate the thinking behind translating personal infinitives into English.

    'We had better go' is better, but good effort!

    (I realise that may sound patronising...but where I live when someone does something really well you say 'good effort!', and it's a compliment, not being condescending!)
     
  8. Archimec Senior Member

    Montreal, Canada
    Portugal, portuguese
    Thank you, ayupshiplad.
     
  9. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    It's not classified as a mood, just a special form of the infinitive.

    A subjunctive or the normal infinitive often work, at least as a first attempt: "It's better that we go", "It's better for us to go" (?).
     
  10. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English

    My grammar book and my verb book call it 'the 4th mood- the personal mood'!!! :confused:

    Yes, the two examples you gave above would be understood, but that only works for certain phrases, as I recall (though of course, I cannot think of a sentence in which it doesn't work)! That's why I use the whole 'possessive pronoun + -ing' to understand the principle...but that's just me. I think it's also because my Portuguese friend says things like "I look forward to your coming" etc in English...
     
  11. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Well, I won't report your book to the authorities, but that's definitely not standard terminology in Portuguese grammar. :)

    "Moods" are normally subdivided into tenses, but the personal infinitive is not.

    Seems like a personal quirk of his.
     
  12. Denis555

    Denis555 Senior Member

    Cracóvia, Polônia
    Brazilian Portuguese
    In Portuguese it's not regarded as a mood. It's only the "Personal Infinitive", which, is, by the way, unique to Portuguese! And I'm very proud of it. No other major romance language has it. That's why it can be difficult. But you, non-native speakers, are faced with a very distinctive feature among the romance languages, so enjoy it. Um pouco de história (em português).
     
  13. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
    It's easy to enjoy it if you can use it...otherwise you just wish it would go away, to put it mildly!

    The whole mood thing...it's rather confusing. It's not just in the one book that I've seen that. I will ask my Latin teacher! He is the font of all knowledge :)!
     
  14. Denis555

    Denis555 Senior Member

    Cracóvia, Polônia
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Well, it's not that difficult, is it?
    The idea behind it is: For X to Y.
    X is a noun or a pronoun, they can be omitted (precisely because Y has the endings in Portuguese); Y is a verb.
    Some examples from this site:
    1.É melhor [para]* nós irmos embora já. (=It's better for us to go away right now).
    2.Farei o possível para as crianças aqui terem o conforto que tinham em casa.
    (= I'll do my best for the children to have the comfort that they had at home).
    3.Mencionei a intenção de vendermos a casa. (=I've mentioned the intention for us[=related to us, our intention] to sell[=of selling] the house). This is a tricky one, but again the idea is, it's for someone to do something.

    *Can be omitted. Actually even the "nós" can be omitted, but no problem because it's clear with "-mos".
     
  15. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
    Ah, it's so easy for a native speaker to say that it's easy to use :p The problem is, I think, that using such a structure is so different from English. In the last example, I would think of saying that as "I've mentioned that we had the intention of selling the house". So you need real 'Sprachgefuehl' ('language feeling') to be able to use the personal infinitive, in my humble opinion.
     
  16. Denis555

    Denis555 Senior Member

    Cracóvia, Polônia
    Brazilian Portuguese
    = Mencionei a intenção de vendermos a casa.

    Yes, you have to do some joggling. :D When rendering this example into Portuguese just use "mos" instead of "that we had", and stick this "mos" to the verb!
    So it's economical, innit?
     
  17. AGATHA2 Senior Member

    Wien, Austria
    german Austria
    só um detalhe mesquinho: "vamos" é conjunctivo ? :confused:
     
  18. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    É conjuntivo e indicativo também.
     
  19. AGATHA2 Senior Member

    Wien, Austria
    german Austria
    Que vergonha não saber isso :(. Será por usar demais o infinitivo pessoal :D
     
  20. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
    It's incredibly economical! Though I do hope you know the only reason I'm agreeing with you is because you said 'innit'!

    p.s (I think you meant juggling, not joggling!)
     
  21. Denis555

    Denis555 Senior Member

    Cracóvia, Polônia
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Yes, you're right! ;) Juggling.:tick: The right spelling.
    So as we can see every language has its own difficulties.
    "innit" is a lovely word!
     
  22. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
  23. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Pois é. Eu não sabia. :thumbsup:
     
  24. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
    I feel a lot clearer about the matter now, because to me it makes 'sense' as a mood.
     
  25. Vanda

    Vanda Moderesa de Beagá

    Belo Horizonte, BRASIL
    Português/ Brasil
    Anyway, attention Ayu to what they say:
    .
    So, this one of those fields not clear, not unanimous in the language...
     
  26. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
    I know, but at least it definitely isn't not a mood...(what excellent expression:p)
     
  27. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Dando uma opinião puramente pessoal, prefiro a opção de Cunha e Cintra, de não considerar o infinitivo pessoal um modo. A ideia de "modo", em várias línguas, é a de uma categoria que representa a relação da acção ou estado representado pelo verbo com a realidade:

    • indicativo: factual
    • subjuntivo: não factual
    • imperativo: requerido
    O infinitivo pessoal não tem este tipo de valor.
     
  28. Vanda

    Vanda Moderesa de Beagá

    Belo Horizonte, BRASIL
    Português/ Brasil
    Eu também, Out! Ia ter que refazer a minha vida inteira de verbos! Como diz a Ayud, at least it definitely is not a mood! What a mood!
     
  29. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
    I agree, Out, however as the subjunctive doesn't always deal with an 'irreality' (subject + clause +antes que (for example) + change of subject+ subjunctive) then couldn't the personal infinitive be classed as a mood...I mean it can replace the subjunctive in certain circumstances (antes que + subj. ---> antes de +personal infinitive). I am very reluctant to give an example as it will be wrong!!!! But do you understand where I'm coming from?
     
  30. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Pois não, mas é, de longe, a função mais comum do subjuntivo.

    Admito que o facto de o infinitivo pessoal ser permutável com o conjuntivo em certas expressões dá que pensar. E em mais que um sentido: se são equivalentes, pertencerão ao mesmo modo?... ;)
     
  31. ayupshiplad Senior Member

    Edinburgh
    Scotland, English
    Let's not, as Portuguese is difficult enough as it is!
     
  32. Rodrigo Matias New Member

    Portuguese-Portugal
    Sorry! Galician has personal infinitive!! This proves how our cultures had been tied for long time...
    Not only amongst the Romance Languages... None Indo-European language has Personal Infinitive besides Portuguese and Galician.
     
  33. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    I think Modern Greek and various Slavic languages have personal infinitives but no impersonal ones.
     
  34. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    My understanding is that what happens in those languages is best described as the lack of an infinitive. Instead, the subjunctive is employed where our languages would use the infinitive.
     

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