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Origin of Persian تقلا

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by Treaty, Mar 31, 2013.

  1. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Hi,

    At first I thought تقلا taqallā (useless struggle) may be a corrupted Arabic word in باب تفعل like تسلا-تسلی. The closest thing I found was تغلی (anxiety resulted by fever).
    My second thought is that the word has a Turkish origin. In this regard, it can be related to تلاش tal
    āš.
    Another idea is that it has the same structure as تکاپوی
    takāpui (v. root+ a + v. root). but it is corrupted over time: تک + ا + لای (move and grieve).

    Is any of these correct? Or is there another story behind it?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Perseas Senior Member

    Athen
    Griechisch
    My thought is that it may be a cognate to the Ancient Greek adjectives τάλας or τλήμων which derive from the IE root *telə = to lift/endure/stand something. Sansk. tula, Germ. dulden, Lat. tollere are all cognates.
     
  3. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    It seems unlikely because taqalla is a new word in Persian. I couldn't find any usage before last century. Even the most complete Persian dictionary (Dehkhoda) does not give much information about it except a brief meaning (which may be added recently by online users).

    By the way, I think I've just found the Arabic root for it. taqalli in Arabic means "to roll on a carpet". It seems this word is not used in Arabic anymore.

    Thanks, anyway.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
  4. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Could taqallā be related to Pashto takal "attempt, effort, essay, endeavor"?
     
  5. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    takal reminds me of English "tackle". In Dari, it is pronounced as takel. In Persian, takl is used only in sports situation (tackle: trying to take the ball from the opponent).

    I'm almost sure that taqallā is the same as Arabic taqalli. Usually, the person or animal who does taqallā is defeated and fallen on the ground. So they struggle to free themselves or change the situation by rolling or similar actions. And taqalli in (archaic) Arabic meant "hostility, enmity" and also "to roll over the ground/carpet". Unfortunately, you cannot find the Arabic word in most dictionaries.
     
  6. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    In Turkish, "takıl" means "to trip and fall" or "to be hanged to somewhere". There are other meanings but this seems to be related.

    There is also something that seems related with the subject. The root "tag":

    "tagla" means "to tag an animal (like a horse)" using hot iron.


    What are some other similar words? (even if they have a known etymology). I have some other words that might be related with the meaning of "useless struggle". (for example, "toqum" means "the animal that's going to be butchered"... or "tügül" means "a knot that can't be solved".... or "tügül" means "food sticking to ones throat nearly suffocating him")
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  7. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    I found in Arabic forum (courtesy of lukebeadgcf), that taqalli means "to loath" and "to toss in bed". In my opinion, it suggests a concept of "trying not to face something unpleasant". It is common that the pronunciation of the last vowel in a word like this changes to a in Persian. I think the original meaning of taqalla in Persian was to "try not to face barriers, for achieving something". This is close to current meaning: (useless) struggle to achieve something.

    I thought the main word for "branding" in Turkish is dağ. Is tagla also used in Turkish?
     
  8. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    Sorry forgot to mention Old Turkic.
     
  9. bazq Senior Member

    Hebrew
    The root t-k-l in Hebrew means "to run into something", both in the meaning of "to meet someone/something unexpectedly" and "to bump into/trip on someone/something and fall to the ground".

    "takala" means "obstacle" or "malfunction".
     
  10. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    I'm afraid you mixed two or even three different things that happen to look similar.

    * תקלה taqala (or tqala) of root t-q-l = obstacle, malfunction, probably related (derived from?) root q-l-q-l. A Hebrew word. להתקל = to bump into is also here I believe.
    * תיקול tiqqul (in sport) = to tackle (trip up) the opponent aggressively, apparently borrowed from the English sport term, or at least influenced by.
    * תאקל taqel = incident, dispute. This one may be similar to the Persian term in this thread. Not sure whether it's related to any of the two above, I think not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  11. bazq Senior Member

    Hebrew
    I don't follow. להיתקל means to bump into something and fall to the ground "נתקל פושע הוא".
    תקלה seems naturally to stem from that notion.
    תאקל seems like pure Anglicism, and "תיקול" looks like the Hebrew version of this Anglicism.

    I believe t-q-l in Hebrew and "tackle" in English is a case of false cognate.
     
  12. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Yes, it is the 5th baab: تفعل tafa33ala !
    That is right! To loath is one meaning and your suggestion of "trying not to face something unpleasant" is also valid! Very close to the meanings I've found in Arabic.

    The root is ق-ل-ى which gives:
    قلا \ يقلو qalaa / yaqluu or قَلَى \ يَقلى qala /yaqli = To roast, fry; to drive way; to dislike.
    قَلِىَ \ يَقلَى qaliya / yaqla = (1) To hate / dislike; drive way. (2)To fry.
    From the 5th baab (تَفَعَّلَ) you get the desired word with the following meaning in Classical Arabic:
    تقلاً \ تقلىً إلى taqallan 2ilaa = To have hatred / dislike for.
    [Other derived meanings from forms I, II are قلَّاء qallaa2 = fryer; قُلىً qulan = summit; mountain top; crown of head, but قِلىً = hate / hatred, dislike, مقلى maqli = fried, etc.]
     
  13. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Thanks everyone!
     

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