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"Out loud" means speaking so that other people can hear

Discussion in 'English Only' started by colum4, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    I make two sentences to explain the meaning of Out loud to others.

    My confusion is not the difference between out loud and loudly, let us not care the difference between out loud and loudly, my confusion is the structure of the sentence. In my mother language, when I explain something to others, I will use the structure of 2.

    That is to say, in China, I will use this structure----I will say "out loud" means speaking loudly and make others heard. So, I think this structure is more like 2 sentence.

    1. "Out loud" means speaking so that other people can hear.
    2. "Out loud" means speaking loudly so that other people can hear.

    Which sentence is right? I think 2 is right. I think the structure of 1 is wrong.

    Am I right?

    Thank you.

    P.S. I do not ask the meaning of out loud, my question is that which sentence is right. Please do not focus on the difference between out loud and loudly. :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  2. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    It seems to me that you only need this for #2: "Out loud" means speaking loudly.

    Or, for an international audience, "In China, 'out loud' means speaking loudly."
     
  3. sdgraham

    sdgraham Senior Member

    Oregon, USA
    USA English
    Neither is correct since we have absolutely no idea whether anybody is around to hear or the speaker is talking to him/herself.

    "Out loud" is a colloquialism meaning "audibly."

    See:

    Collins Concise English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers::

    audible /ˈɔːdɪbəl/adj
    • perceptible to the hearing; loud enough to be heard (This makes no assumption as to whether anybody is around to hear it.)

     
  4. Cagey post mod

    California
    English - US
    It's difficult to answer your question without paying attention to the meaning of 'out loud', because 'out loud' does not mean 'loudly'. It means "so that other people can hear". Aloud has the same meaning.

    If I look only at the structure of the sentences, I can tell you that they both are grammatical, though the second one is not accurate.

    Cross-posted.
     
  5. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese

    Hi,
    If we do not care the accurate, would you tell me the difference between 1 and 2 ?

    I think 1 is odd for me.

    Thank you.
     
  6. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    Do you mean so that other people can hear is duplicated when speaking loudly exists ?

    Thank you.
     
  7. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    Forgive me for suggesting that you are making this too complicated -- and too confusing for native speakers with your apparent assertion that in China "out loud" means something different than what it means in the rest of the world.

    It is difficult for us to divorce your "meanings" from the grammatical structure of your sentence, which is what you seem to want to do -- especially by giving us two sentences which invite comparison.

    "Out loud" means speaking aloud.
    "Out loud" means speaking audible.

    "Out loud" means speaking loudly.
    "Out loud" means speaking loud enough that other people can hear.


    As we've said, your two original sentences are grammatical, but the second one is not accurate, as Cagey has pointed out.
     
  8. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese

    Hi,
    If everything is ideal, would you like 1 or 2 to say?

    I think 1 is odd for me. In China, I will use the structure like this to say: out loud" means speaking loudly and make others heard. I think it is like the structure of 2.

    Thank you.
     
  9. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    If we do not care the accurate, would you tell me the difference between 1 and 2 ?

    I think 1 is odd for me.

    In China, I will use the structure like this to say: out loud" means speaking loudly and make others heard. I think it is like the structure of 2.

    Thank you.
     
  10. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    Ok, forget China ... you want to know how native English speakers say it and we say it like #1 because that is the definition of "out loud" --

    He read the sentence out loud. (making sounds)
    He read the sentence to himself. (silently, making no sounds)

    Now here's something we can live with:

    I just discovered that "out loud" means saying something aloud. In China, we use it differently. We say "out loud" to mean talking loudly. What a surprise for me!
     
  11. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    In English, If I say 2, Is so that other people can hear duplicated when speaking loudly exists?

    Thank you.
     
  12. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    I'm sorry ... perhaps it's the time of day, but I don't understand this.

    Saying something "out loud" means that it's audible. Whether or not someone can hear depends on the distance they are from you, their hearing ability, and the volume at which you speak.

    Out loud has nothing to do with speaking loudly.
     
  13. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    Let us pretend Out loud has the same meaning as loudly, now, Is so that other people can hear duplicated when speaking loudly exists?

    Thank you.
     
  14. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    You can speak loudly and no one can hear if they're not within earshot -- so the two are not related. See my two sentences in post 7:

    "Out loud" means speaking loudly.
    "Out loud" means speaking loud enough that other people can hear.
     
  15. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    We have pretended loudly has the same meaning as out loud already.(I know, althrough they are different actually)

    Would you not focus on the difference between out loud and loudly ?:)

    Now, Is so that other people can hear duplicated when speaking loudly exists?:)

    Thank you.
     
  16. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    I have pretended for you -- you are apparently not realizing it.

    When you have people hearing, you need "loud enough." Just "talking loudly" does not guarantee someone will hear you -- "loud enough for people to hear" solves that problem.

    I think you are imagining people five feet away and 50 feet away -- if so, that is just your imagining. I am imagining people being so far away that speaking loudly will never reach their ears. It's not just a matter of your view and my view -- your sentence "speaking loudly so that other people can hear" doesn't make practical sense.
     
  17. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    I find a question: you say "Out loud" means speaking loudly and "Out loud" means speaking loud enough that other people can hear. So, as your thought, I think you mean loudly = loud enough that other people can hear.

    But, now you say talking loudly is not = loud enough for people to hear.

    So, I think it is contradictory ?:)

    Thank you.
     
  18. wandle

    wandle Senior Member

    London
    English - British
    When children are learning to read, they do so at first out loud: that means speaking the words audibly.
    It is only later that they acquire the skill of reading silently.

    Once a child has reached the stage of beginning to read silently, it is necessary to be specific when we ask the child to read.
    If we want the child to read silently, we say 'Read it under your breath'.
    If we want the child to speak the words audibly, we say 'Read it out loud'.

    Later on, the growing child learns to replace the phrase 'out loud' with the word 'aloud'.
     
  19. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    Out loud is an adverb that means loudly / loud enough to be heard / audibly / aloud etc. I may laugh out loud. :rolleyes:

    laugh /lɑːf/ vb
    • (intransitive) to express or manifest emotion, esp mirth or amusement, typically by expelling air from the lungs in short bursts to produce an inarticulate voiced noise, with the mouth open

    speak /spiːk/ vb (speaks, speaking, spoke, spoken)
    • to make (verbal utterances); utter (words)
    • to communicate or express (something) in or as if in words
     
  20. RM1(SS)

    RM1(SS) Senior Member

    Connecticut
    English - US (Midwest)


    The only difference between your sentences is that you've inserted an adverb into 2. An adverb is not needed, so both sentences (disregarding content) are grammatically correct.
     
  21. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    That first sentence -- "Out loud" means speaking loudly -- is yours, not mine. You asked me to pretend it was Ok, so I did. So don't start thinking that I really think that's what "out loud" means.
     
  22. JulianStuart

    JulianStuart Senior Member

    Sonoma County CA
    English (UK then US)
    When I speak "out loud", I can speak loudly enough for someone in China to hear me or I can speak so softly that only my friend whose ear is one inch from my mouth can only just hear. "Out loud" just means the volume is above zero but it might be a whisper or a shout.

    Speaking loudly means that my voice is much louder than a whisper.
     
  23. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    Now, I make another sentence: "Out loud" means speaking aloud so that other people can hear.

    Now, this sentence is right?

    Thank you.
     
  24. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    I'm sorry but you have totally confused this thread, making it fairly useless for anyone looking for information in the future.

    You don't want us to focus on "out loud" because "you know what it means" -- you want to pretend it means something else. And yet you continue making up sentences using "out loud" that really ask for us to comment on their accuracy with regard to the definition of "out loud" as we know it.

    So I will say again, as other people have about your other sentences: grammatically, it is fine, but in terms of accuracy it is not.

    If you have nothing new to add to this discussion, or no acknowledgement to make about people trying to help you in this difficult task, then I will close this thread.
     
  25. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    Thank you for your help.:)

    The reason why I use aloud to replace loudly is because you do not answer my question directly---Is so that other people can hear duplicated when speaking loudly exists in #15

    You just say my sentence:"speaking loudly so that other people can hear" doesn't make practical sense in #16.

    So I think the reason why you do not answer my quesion is that loudly is not suitable.

    So I think I should replace loudly by aloud.

    Then I think speaking aloud is = so that other people can hear. Then, you may answer my question.:)

    Thank you.
     
  26. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    This is not true.

    And I addressed "other people" in two threads already:

    #7: "Out loud" means speaking loud enough that other people can hear.
    #14:
    "Out loud" means speaking loud enough that other people can hear. (Same thing, with emphasis.)

    When you have "that other people can hear," you need "loud enough."
     
  27. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    Can I think:
    "Out loud" means speaking so that other people can hear = "Out loud" means speaking loud enough so that other people can hear ?

    Thank you.



     
  28. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    I can speak out loud with no one around to hear me. This is why this thread is getting so long. You are mixing up what is grammatically correct with the actual meaning of "out loud." I suggest you reread this thread before you post again.
     
  29. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi,
    I forgot something.

    If there are some people around me, we are drinking water. Now, what the answer of my question?:)

    Thank you.
     
  30. Copyright

    Copyright Senior Member

    Penang
    American English
    That's an unusual sentence and I don't see a question. You will also have to tell us how that relates to the original question/structure for us to discuss it in this thread.
     
  31. ewie

    ewie Senior Member

    This septic isle!
    NW Englandish English
    :)cool: still learning here)
     
  32. Edinburgher Senior Member

    Scotland
    German/English bilingual
    Oh for crying out loud! -- Sorry, that was an expression of exasperation I thought I'd throw in because it also contains the expression "out loud" (where it also does not mean "loudly").

    Look, colum, you've given us two sentences and asked us to comment on their structure while disregarding the meanings of "out loud" and "loudly". We find it difficult to disregard the meanings because everything you say gives the impression that you don't know that their meanings are in fact different; you treat them as the same.

    You have been repeatedly told that the structure of both sentences is OK. If you don't believe this, why don't you tell us what specific problem you perceive in the structure?

    The structure of both sentences is that they both say that "out loud" means speaking in a certain way (as an aside, it would have been better for both sentences to say "Speaking out loud" means..., because "out loud" does not always imply speaking; there are other things you can do out loud, such as crying).

    Back to the structure. Here is my analysis: Both sentences contain the adverbial phrase "so that other people can hear". In sentence (1), this phrase modifies the verb "speaking", and the sentence tells us (incorrectly, of course, but you've asked us to pretend that it's correct, and we can do that, even though it goes against every bone in our body) that "speaking out loud" means to speak in such a way as to ensure that others can hear. The second sentence can be interpreted in two ways. Either (A) it contains an additional adverb, "loudly", and is saying two things: (1) that "out loud" means "loudly", (2) that it means "so that others can hear" (the adverb and the adverbial phrase operate in parallel and both modify the verb). An alternative interpretation (B) is that it says only one thing, namely that "out loud" means speaking sufficiently loudly that others can hear; now the adverbial phrase "so that others can hear" no longer modifies the verb, but modifies the adverb "loudly". Both structures are perfectly correct; there is no reason why a verb should not be modified by several adverbs or adverbial phrases, or why an adverbial phrase should not modify an adverb. Your concern seems to be more with sentence (1) than (2) however, so all I can assume is that you are misinterpreting the meaning of "so that". There is nothing wrong with a "so that" phrase modifying a verb. I suspect that your problem is that you feel the phrase needs to modify an adverb, which in sentence (1) is missing. There is no such need, and interpretation (A) is perfectly valid.

    With interpretation (A) it would be better to insert "and" between "loudly" and "so"; with interpretation (B) it would be better to insert a comma instead.

    You've also asked an additional question, this time about duplication. What you seem to be asking is whether sentence (2) contains a pleonasm (a redundancy, a duplication of meaning). You are asking whether "so that others can hear" duplicates the meaning of "loudly". The answer to your question is: No, "so that others can hear" does not duplicate "loudly", it simply refines it.
     
  33. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    Both sentences, 1 and 2, are correct sentences with different meanings because 1 does not mention loudness but 2 does.

    So that in both sentences is ambiguous. It could mean "in order that", expressing purpose, or it could mean "in such a way that", used to quality/define the manner of "speaking".

    The actual meaning of "out loud" depends on context, and may or may not involve speaking, and it can also be ambiguous. It usually means something like "literally"/"physically"/"evidently"/"audibly", but it can also include the idea of "loud" or "loudly". And in some contexts "out loud" is just "out" followed by "loud" rather than the well-worn phrase.
     
  34. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    Hi every one,
    Thank you and Copyright very much.:)

    And thank Edinburgher, you make me clear.:)

    I will reread this thread carefully in future.

    Thank you.
     

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