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państwo

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by kosmosu, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. kosmosu New Member

    American English
    When ordering in a restaurant, would a customer use 'państwo' to ask, for example, "Do 'you' have dark beer?" What is the standard?
     
  2. marco_2 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Yes, a polite waiter / waitress can ask: Czy życzą sobie Państwo ciemne piwo? when addressing two and more people of different sex.
     
  3. NotNow Senior Member

    English
    Kosmosu is asking what the customer, not the waiter, should say. I suggest you leave out the you, and just say, Jest ciemne piwo? Let's see what native speakers suggest.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  4. marco_2 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    If you want to be more polite, ask: Czy ma Pan / Pani ciemne piwo? or Czy macie Państwo ciemne piwo? - if there are more bartenders.
     
  5. The_Moonlight

    The_Moonlight Junior Member

    Polish
    I would say "Czy mają państwo ciemne piwo?" regardless of the number of waiters. If it's a pub, the bartender is more or less your age and you want to come across as less formal, you can say "Macie ciemne piwo?"
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  6. kosmosu New Member

    American English
    Dzięki. I learned a lot from your responses. 'Państwo' makes me appreciate my native Texas, y'all, even more. Cheers.
     
  7. kirahvi Senior Member

    Finnish
    Shoudn't it be Czy mają Państwo?

    Edit: I just noticed The_Moonlight had already used mają, so that already answered my question.
     
  8. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I would say, when asking a waiter, it would be very polite to ask: Czy mają Państwo ciemne piwo?. I would not use Pan/Pani in this context. You could say, Pan to a waiter, but Panstwo would be more general -- does the restaurant have, not the waiter himself. I use Panstwo allways instead of wy, if I don't know the people (which is like 99% of time). Some people, especially younger: teenagers and people in their 20's, don't use it at all. Some people less educated also don't use it -- people speaking in simple language, especially older people from the country, I guess, and it is not present in many dialects, such as Silesian, for example, and most other regional dialects, I think. If you overdo, Państwo, every second sentence, for example, you may sound slightly archaic. :D (or pretentious)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  9. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    No, both forms are correct and acceptable.
    There is a nuance, however. To me 'Czy macie państwo piwo?' is a bit more colloquial than 'Czy mają państwo piwo?'. It's the first one that I'd use in a pub, where the atmosphere is relaxed, but I might go for the second one in a posh restaurant (which doesn't mean that using them interchangeably in both situations would be wrong).

    I might also use '(Czy) macie piwo*?' if I've already got to know the bartender(s) and we have stated to be on friendly terms (for instance, using our first names to call each other). I could also use this formulation in a pub/club where I'm for the first time if I see that the bartenders are more or less my age and the circumstances allow it.
    *actually I'd probably have known that since the beginning, but if it was something that I'd be unsure they might have, like a special kind/brand of beer/alcohol or anything I might need, the question could pop up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  10. kirahvi Senior Member

    Finnish
    Thanks, Thomas1. I've always been told that macie is plain wrong and unacceptable, although it is used in colloquial speech.
     
  11. marco_2 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Of course you are right: after Państwo you should use the verb in 3rd plural (like in Spanish) - I sometimes forget about it, because a lot of people around me make this mistake.
     
  12. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    If you chose this option in any language test, it would be marked wrong, but it is used a lot in colloquial speech. #11.
     
  13. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    If I was in a refined restaurant, I could ask 'Czy maja państwo ciemne piwo?', but outside of this setting, not really. I think you could even run the risk of being laughed if you were to say this in a pub during a regular friday night. :D
     
  14. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    On the other hand, if you said -- macie, you may sound very rude.
     
  15. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Let me recapitulate: the second person plural of a verb used with the noun 'państwo' (Czy macie państwo piwo?) is correct and has a realatively long tradition in the Polish language. It is a bit more colloquial than the third person plural of a verb (Czy mają państwo piwo?) and less so than the direct form of a verb in the second person plural (Macie piwo?), but that's it about it. You can hear it practically everywhere today, includng meetings of high-rank officials, TV, radio, etc. The choice of which one to use depends on how formal you are/want to/can be with the people you are talking to.
    There are people who consider it wrong, because of the grammatical person incompatibility, but this is not what the reality looks like. 'państwo' used with a verb in the second person plural has been around for quite a time and is used by people from all walks of life (besides, our language has many more blatant inconsistencies and nobody even bats an eyelid at them.).

    Here is what Professor Mirosław Bańko from the PWN advising body on the Polish language says about it.



    :idea: Just for the record: on the other hand, I would strongly disadvise against using 'pan' or 'pani' with the second person singular, for eample:
    Masz pan piwo?
    Daj pani dwa piwa.

    They are most of the time rude (although this hasn't always been the case). Today this particular usage verges on being vulgar.
     
  16. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Masz Pan cegłę. :D (no sorry -- kup Pan cegłę, I think it was).
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  17. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Thomas, I think you're reading too much into this. No-one speaks like that. 'Macie ciemne piwo?' is highly colloquail, that much is true, but not a single person would scould you for saying so. It's far better than 'Czy mają państwo ciemno piwo?' which sounds stiff an out of place, to say the least.
     
  18. The_Moonlight

    The_Moonlight Junior Member

    Polish
    I wouldn't say they are rude most of the time. They are rude when somebody wants them to be rude. From my point of view, this kind of wording is used mainly by less educated people, and is generally neutral. It's the tone of the voice that determines whether it's rude or not. As a matter of fact, I think it can be used jovially or congenially.

    - Co panu podać?
    - A daj pani duże piwo! ;-)
     
  19. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    :D
    We translated a movie into French during one of our courses, it was Alternatywy 4, a series where this kind of language is used almost on a daily basis (by some of the caracters at least). One of the phrases that I still remember went mor or less "Panie, weź pan to!". I was sitting and starring at it trying to figure out how to translate the 'pan' parts. Later I found out that it was rendered as by a simple 'vous'. I was kind of disappointed, but you can't always translate everything. Any ideas if it is possible to render the nuances into English?

    Well, I've come across this kind of usage, e.g. Daj pani piwo!, many a time. For example, if you are in a rural area try to listen out for the language used by loyal clients of off-licences.
    I didn't bring this up, did I?:confused:,
    This occured to me too after I posted and pondered about it later on. To me it is either a question of familiarity or rudeness.
    Today there are some social strata that use this kind of language and then it is a widely accepted form (I don't mean here imitating this for comic purposes). I think you aren't far off the mark with the one you're mentioning, Moonlight. It is then often considered familiar and congenial.
    Then again, if I heard someone talking like that in the pubs I sometimes go to with my friends in the centre of Warsaw, then it would be very likely considered rude and quite awkward. Another example: if I hear certain univeristy teachers saying: Macie Państwo prace na dziś?, there is nothing wrong about it. However, if I heard anyone addressing a student: Masz Pan pracę na dziś?, I would consider it rude, would you?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  20. The_Moonlight

    The_Moonlight Junior Member

    Polish
    I would if it was uttered with a sharp tone of voice and accompanied with a piercing glare at the student. If, however, it was uttered with a smile, possibly a wink, but most importantly, with a jocular tone of voice, I would consider it tongue-in-cheek, nothing rude about it. If it was uttered flatly, unemotionally, and if I didn't know any better, I'd simply assume the professor had a very peculiar idiolect.

    I think Warsaw isn't a hotbed of uneducated people so I can agree it could be awkward (still not sure about rude, though ;) ).
     
  21. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    It seems to me that your answers are valid only for your age group and social group. One should be cautious generalizing, especially when answering foreigners. Unfortunately far too many of Polish speakers at this forum don't see the usage of the Polish language as spectrum, in which their own sociolect might even not represent the majority of speakers.
     
  22. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    That's not true. Besides, how do you know what my social group is? I assure you that people from all walks of life, regardless of their age, would be far more likely to ask 'Macie ciemno piwo'? in a bar, rather than 'Macie państwo ciemne piwo?'. One could add 'Macie może ciemne piwo?', to make it more polite. Of course, I'm not trying to say that the 'państwo' version is non-existent in such establishments.

    But well, since the thread deals with restaurants, one is better off saying 'Państwo'.
     
  23. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I think most people over forty, especially educated (with at least high school education), would not say macie ciemne piwo. (unless thier langauge has totally changed over the quarter of a century, but I doubt it).
     
  24. PawelBierut Senior Member

    Polish - Poland
    Czy macie ciemne piwo?
    would be fine.

    I think if you add at the beginning of the question czy, it becomes acceptable, even when said by educatad people over forty.
     
  25. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I know that you can make almost everything sound/read the way you want it through various operations. But that's not what I'm thinking about.
    The situation I had in mind was the following: the teacher usually uses the standard form in this setting, i.e. Czy ma pan pracę na dziś?, but instead of this, for a change, he says: Masz pan pracę na dziś? without any prosodic change. To make it even more visible imagine that the same teacher addressed some of his students using Czy ma pan pracę na dziś? and some Masz pan pracę na dziś? If there is nothing inappropriate about it, there shouldn't be any reaction at this form. However, to me it would be rude, well maybe at the beginnig I would laugh at it, but if this continued I would consider it rude and out of place.

    By the way, if we reversed the situation and this time a student asked the university teacher: Masz pan nasze prace?/Sprawdziłeś pan nasze prace? (again no prosodic changes are involved) instead of Ma pan nasze prace?/Sprawdził pan nasze prace?, I'd have a lot of trouble believing that this was an idiolect.

    Note that this would not happen if the teacher used Czy macie państwo prace na dziś? interchangeably with Czy mają państwo prace na dziś? [I am talking about the form, not about repeating the same sentence during one class, of course.]
     
  26. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Does anybody actually still say Masz Pan? I think this was Polish form some parts of Warsaw in 1920s. I only saw it, or rather heard this kind of speech, in the movies about pre-war Warsaw. "Kup Pan cegłę" -- was one of the phrases, but I don't remember the details. It must have been some kind of a comedy.
     
  27. PawelBierut Senior Member

    Polish - Poland
    Yes. You can still hear expressions like that, and not only in Warsaw.
     
  28. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Is it typical of the Wola Warsaw dialect, though? The street bands, and men in flat hats (I forgot what you call them). You could see it in the movies about the 1920-1940s.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  29. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I think it was even the standard part of the Warsaw dialect. You can still hear it in many parts of Poland. There is even a series, aired by Polsat I think, Świat według Kiepskich, whose characters use these constructions on a daily basis.
    As to the phrase, it is quite well known, but I think many people don't know where it comes from. Thanks for the opportunity to find this out: Ewa chce spać.

    EDIT: I've just seen your last post, Liliana.
     
  30. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    It actually sounds very nice, in a movie especially. ;)
     
  31. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    It has nothing whatsoever to do with education. It all boils down to whether one want to sound stiff and stilted, or friendly. And since a bar is a pretty informal setting, I see nothing wrong with 'Macie może ciemne piwo? - 'Can I get a dark beer here, by any chance?'. 'Może' does the trick.
     
  32. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Porter. I don't think there is anything wrong with it -- it was just an observation.
     
  33. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    When you said that 'they would not say macie ciemne piwo', it did actually seem to me that there's something wrong with saying 'Macie może ciemne piwo?'. It does not strike me as impolite, it's just informal and friendly in tone, depending on your demeanour. :)
     
  34. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I would never say anything like that, my mother would use this form of addressing people -- by wy, but I don't really drink beer more than once a year, and I don't even live in Poland, so it might be just something people do in bars to sound more casual and relaxed, or people in their twenties not to sound overly pretentious.
     
  35. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Well, times have changed. And yes, 'Czy macie państwo piwo?', coming from a 20-year-old person would a tiny bit odd, but this might be just me.
     
  36. kknd Senior Member

    Polska / Poland
    polski / Polish
    nobody came with jest może ciemne piwo? so far, which should be quite popular… to be frank i'm using it all the time (adhering to my indirect adressing manner policy :p).
     
  37. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    And nobody tries to make you say something else. We only would like somewhat more nuanced answers to foreign foreros.
     
  38. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    After my last weekend's visit to a local pub, I noticed:


    [Pierwsze podejście do baru.]
    Barmanka: Co podać?
    Thomas: Piwo.
    Barmanka: Proszę.
    Thomas: Dzięki. Macie wódkę?
    Barmanka: Tak. [...]

    [Drugie podejście do baru.]
    Barmanka: Tak?
    Thomas: Butelkę wódki.
    Barmanka: Jaką chcesz?
    Thomas: A jakie macie?
    Barmanka: XYZ, ZYW i MNB.
    Thomas: Moment, zapytam znajomych.
    [...]
    Barmanka: Dobrze, to ja to zaraz przygotuję. Coś jeszcze?
    Thomas: Dzięki. Macie sok jabłkowy?
    [...]
    [Przy odejściu do stolika z zakupem i szkłem.]
    Barmanka: Może pomóc?
    Thomas: Dzięki, poradzę sobie.
    Barmanka: Pomogę.
    Thomas: OK, dzięki.

    [Trzecie podejście.]
    Thomas: Ma pani wodę?
    Barmanka: Tak. Jaką?
    [...]


    As you can see, there is a lot of flexibility in a setting such as a pub. :D
     
  39. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    It looks we were right about it being a part of the Warsaw dialect (it's almost extinct today, though):
    In the movie in question, it is said by a thief (I think from Warsaw, there is one indication in the film itself that the action takes place in the capital). Besides, I think that at that time it might have been perceived differently than it is today. You will still find this form in movies (I remember it from the recent Warld War II series Czas honoru, directed by Michał Rosa, where you can hear the Warsaw dialect).
     

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