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Past tense- Anar+infinitive

Discussion in 'Català (Catalan)' started by avalon2004, Sep 17, 2006.

  1. avalon2004 Senior Member

    Merseyside, England
    UK- English/Spanish
    Hola,

    Does anyone know when and how the usage of "anar/present + infinitive" came to have a preterite/past tense meaning? (An example of this: Vaig parlar, cf Spanish: Hablé) It seems very unique to Catalan as I have never seen something similar in other Romance languages. Does a non-periphrastical form of preterite in fact exist?
    Moltes gràcies amb antel.lació per l'ajuda! :)

    (Sorry for not writing in Catalan; I understand it both spoken and written but I myself cannot speak/write it yet).
     
  2. Samaruc Senior Member

    València (País Valencià)
    Valencià/Català, Castellano
    Hola Avalon2004,

    Well, I don't know what was the origin of the "passat perifràstic"... Let's wait for another forero who knows about it.

    But I can tell you that there is, in fact, a "normal" tense that is completely equivalent to the "passat perifràstic": the "passat simple".

    PASSAT PERIFRÀSTIC

    (JO) VAIG PARLAR
    (TU) VAS/VARES PARLAR
    (ELL/ELLA) VA PARLAR
    (NOSALTRES) VAM/VÀREM PARLAR
    (VOSALTRES) VAU/VÀREU PARLAR
    (ELLS/ELLES) VAN/VAREN PARLAR​

    PASSAT SIMPLE

    (JO) PARLÍ
    (TU) PARLARES
    (ELL/ELLA) PARLÀ
    (NOSALTRES) PARLÀREM
    (VOSALTRES) PARLÀREU
    (ELLS/ELLES) PARLAREN​

    Both forms are completely equivalent, but most dialects have lost the "passat simple" and only use the "passat perifràstic" (in this case, the "passat simple" is reserved only for literary purposes).

    The dialects, like mine (Catalan from Valencia), that have maintained both forms alive tend to use the long forms of the "passat perifràstic" (tu vares parlar) and the ones that have lost the "passat simple" tend to use the short forms (tu vas parlar). Anyway, all forms are normative.

    The "passat perifràstic" is always regular and the "passat simple" has many irregular forms. I suppose this has influded in the fact that the periphrastic forms are by far much more used in normal speech.

    BY the way, there are three more periphastic forms:

    • Passat Anterior Perifràstic d'Indicatiu: JO VAIG HAVER PARLAT...
    • Passat Perifràstic de Subjuntiu: JO VAGI/VAJA PARLAR...
    • Passat Anterior Perifràstic de Subjuntiu: JO VAGI/VAJA HAVER PARLAT...

    All of them have a non periphastic equivalent form:

    • Passat Anterior d'Indicatiu: JO HAGUÍ PARLAT...
    • Passat de Subjuntiu: JO PARLÉS/PARLÀS...
    • Passat Perifràstic de Subjuntiu: JO HAGUÉS PARLAT...

    Eps! Ara veig que entens el català escrit i parlat i t'he respost en anglès... Bé, tant se val...

    Salut!
     
  3. betulina una mod a Baetulo

    al bressol del basquetbol
    català - Catalunya
    Hola, Avalon2004,

    Doncs sí, per qui aprèn català aquest temps deu sorprendre una mica. Com dius, és una peculiaritat de la llengua. I és curiós perquè crec que els parlants no som "conscients" que aquest temps funciona així. Si ho traduïm literalment al castellà, per exemple, "voy hablar", realment no ens dóna cap sentit de pretèrit.

    He buscat alguna informació sobre això, perquè no m'havia aturat mai a pensar-hi, i he trobat a la gramàtica de Badia i Margarit que el perfet perifràstic es documenta des de fa molt de temps i que (transcric literalment) "resultà de canalitzar vers el significat d'un passat perfectiu una frase verbal (com vaig cantar) que, si no, fàcilment hauria pogut desembocar en un futur immediat". Precisament esmenta que en francès la mateixa construcció és un futur ("je vais chanter"). També en castellà, quan abans he escrit "voy hablar" m'ha fet la sensació que donava una idea més de futur ("voy a hablar"). En català "vaig a parlar" no és correcte.
    Potser és que unes llengües s'han decantat més cap al futur i el català cap al passat? :confused:

    A veure si algun company en té alguna altra explicació.

    Per cert, això funciona tant per al pretèrit d'indicatiu com per al de subjuntiu.

    De pretèrit perfet no-perifràstic sí que n'hi ha. En alguns dialectes s'utilitza més que en d'altres. En el central, per exemple, és molt estrany (per no dir pràcticament impossible) sentir-lo i es reserva per a la llengua escrita formal, on conviu amb perifràstic.

    Salut!
     
  4. kiyama

    kiyama Senior Member

    Catalunya, català
    The non -periphrastical form using your exmple would be parlí. This tense is "passat simple" and it isn't really common, especially in 1st singular person.
    Passat simple and passat perifràstic (anar+infinitiu) have exactly the same meaning, but the second one is more used colloqu¡ally.
     
  5. vkladchik New Member

    English - US
    Long-dead post, but since it shows up in Google searches for anyone wondering about this past tense, I will post what I found, for the archives, as it were. (This is from a Google group whose url I am apparently not allowed to link to. If you want to find the original page, do a Google search for something in here.)

    It's <anar> "to go".
    The thing started in Catalan as it did in other Romance languages
    (Castilian, Provençal), as a stylistic variant of the normal present and
    past tenses:

    present: va donar he goes and gives...
    imperfect: anava donar he went and gave...
    perfect: anà donar ,,

    An example of the original use, from Ramon Muntaner (1265-1336), is the following fragment of his Chronicles:

    "E tantost que açò HAC FET, el cavall SE SENTÍ ferit e LLEVÀ'S davant e detràs així que fóra caüt so no fos que ERA ab cadena fermat a la sella. Què us diré? Ella VA METRE la man a l'espaa, e VENC a un portell altre, e ANÀ FERIR lo cavall per la testera, e el cavall ESTEC estabornit. Qué us diré? Lo cavall VA PENDRE per la regna, e CRIDÀ: -- Cavaller, mort sóts si no us retets--. E el cavaller TENC-SE per mort, e VA TENIR lo bordó e VA'L GITAR en terra e RETÉ'S a ella; e ella PRES lo bordó e TRASC-li la llança de la cuixa e així MÈS-lo dins Peralada."

    [And as soon as she had done that, the horse felt itself wounded and moved forward and backward so that he would have fallen if it wasn't that he was fastened by chain to the saddle. What shall I tell you? She goes and puts the hand to the sword, and came to a different breach and went and wounded the horse through the head-armour, and the horse stood unconscious. What shall I tell you? The horse she took by the reins, and she called: Knight, you are dead if you don't surrender. And the knight held himself for dead and he goes and takes the staff and goes and throws it to the ground and he surrendered to her; and she took the staff and removed the lance from his leg and so took him into Peralada."]

    The sense of the forms ANAR + inf. here is not what they would be in modern Catalan (note especially the combination <anà ferir>), although it's easy to read the text as if they were. It's probably this use of the present tense of ANAR + infinitive in the narrative, as a kind of historic present, which led (in the 14th-15th centuries) to the modern Catalan usage.
    -- Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
     
  6. ampurdan

    ampurdan Modstachioed modnster

    jiā tàiluó ní yà
    Català & español (Spain)
    I would like to point out that (at least today) it does not correspond exactly with the forms of the verb "anar" (to go):

    Jo vaig Jo vaig menjar
    Tu vas Tu vas/vares menjar
    Ell va Ell va menjar
    Nosaltres anem Nosaltres vam/vàrem menjar
    Vosaltres aneu Vosatres vau/vàreu menjar
    Ells van Ells van/varen menjar
     
  7. merquiades

    merquiades Senior Member

    France
    USA Northeast
    BY the way, there are three more periphastic forms:passat Anterior Perifràstic d'Indicatiu: JO VAIG HAVER PARLAT...Passat Perifràstic de Subjuntiu: JO VAGI/VAJA PARLAR...Passat Anterior Perifràstic de Subjuntiu: JO VAGI/VAJA HAVER PARLAT...........................Hola. Mai no he sentit parlar d'aquests temps. L'utilitzeu? Com es fan servir?Espero que vagis anar al cinema... en lloc de.... Espero que hagis anat.....?Jo vaig haver parlat de la pellicula... i no.... Jo havia parlat de la pellicula...?No creia que tu vagis haver-hi anat... i no... No creia que tu hi hagués anat...?Ben dit? Una mica llarg, no? Fins aviat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010
  8. StudentOfTheWorld New Member

    Kannada & English
    I had a question about that: is there a difference between the use of the simple preterite and periphrastic preterite in that case? Sorry to revive this thread.
     
  9. loqu Junior Member

    Sevilla / València
    Spanish - Western Andalusian
    I'm not a native, so if I'm wrong please someone correct me - but as far as I'm aware, no, there is no difference in meaning between the simple preterite and the periphrastic preterite. When speaking, the simple preterite is either dialectally marked (its usage is much more frequent in Valencia than in other areas) or very formal, keep that in mind for oral communication. When writing, it's fine to use them both equally.
     

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