Discussion in 'Lingua Latina (Latin)' started by infinite sadness, Jan 15, 2009.
Como se reconstruye la gramatica de la frase "pax et vobiscum"?
Hola infinite sadness, di latin en la escuela no me acuerdo de mucho, a qué te refieres con reconstruir la gramatica de la frase? por curiosidad
Pax -- noun feminine nominative singular "Peace"
et (etiam) -- adverb "also"
vobiscum -- ablative of the second person plural pronoun vos "you (all)" + preposition cum "with" = "with you (all)" (cum normally precedes its object but is attached to the end of personal pronouns)
I'm not sure whether this is exactly what you're looking for.
I wondered why the verb was absent.
Besides, I thought "et" as "and". Now, with "also", that one makes some more sense to me.
"Pax vobiscum" is usually seen without the "et".
It is a greeting by the priest in the Catholic Latin Mass, meaning "Peace (be) with you".
The congregation's reply is "Et cum spiritu tuo" - "And with thy spirit".
In Catholic Latin Mass it's: Dominus Vobiscum (God (be) with you all.
Still I think that you are correct: we should read Pax Vobiscum (w/o et)
Well there are different parts of the Mass, some that say Dominus vobiscum ("the Lord [be] with you"), and some Pax vobis(cum) ("peace [be] with you"), and then there's Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum ("[May] the peace of the Lord be with you always").
In a pontifical mass, the bishop says tthe greeting: Pax vobiscum, in a mass celebrated by a priest he always says Dominus vobiscum.
At least that is in the Tridentine mass, the one always celebrated in Latin.
From a Roman Missal dating before Vatican II:
Beginning (offertory) the priest said:
After peace prayer:
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
When mass was pontifical, the bishop said to deacon:
At the end:
Ite, missa est.
That has to be Pax Domini sit sempre vobiscum.
Yes, Domini, you're quite right! Excuse my "lapsus (?)", please
The first greeting in a pontifical mass is: pax vobis (peace be to you), used instead of Dominus vobiscum (the first greeting is after the gloria).
Pax tecum is said also from the priest to the deacon in a High solemn mass.
It's interesting that the verb is absent in some forms, but not in the longer one.
As a number of contributors have already noted *pax et vobiscum is nonsense.
Pax vobiscum is an ellipsis of pax sit vobiscum (Peace BE with you).
Pax et vobiscum is not nonsense at all. That's the whole point of ellpsis: you can leave it out and it still makes perfect sense.
Would you ever tell anyone that in English questions like "Going to the store?" are nonsense because they are missing a subject ("you") and auxiliary verb ("are")?
And of what, pray, would 'pax ET vobiscum' (?peace AND with you) be an ellipsis??
It would be an ellipsis of Pax et vobiscum sit.
In this context "et" does not mean "and"; it means "also, too."
Sorry, but I would need some convincing that 'et' can ever be anything but a conjunction, which would still make 'pax et vobiscum' meaningless (even as an ellipsis). 'Etiam' is indeed an adverb, but, again, I've never once come across its appearing in abbreviated form as 'et'.
Maybe I've been reading the wrong kind of Latin! Perhaps you'd be good enough to cite an instance or two of this adverbial use of 'et' in the writings of an established Latin author?
Regarding to the adverbial use of "et", I can think of the followings right now:
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes." (also wenn...)or the famous: "Et tu, Brute?"(also, too) As brian8733 wrote, it really means "Pax et vobiscum sit!"(ellipsis!).
Yes, the one I always cite is Vergil's Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes = I fear the Greeks even bearing gifts.
Et really has lots of meanings: and, also, and even are the main ones, I'd say.
Edit: Just found that there is a Wikipedia article on that line, which says:
And then Perseus has this to say in definition H:
Italian Wikipedia reports that both translations are correct.
More, the second one (I fear the Greeks and the gift they're bearing) is stressing the double danger in accepting something given without any reason and expecially from declared enemies.
Still the first one is more accepted as the literal translation.
The Italian one looks like the only one that concedes that it may be okay/understandable to translate et as and:
Interestingly, however, they consider the translation with Italian e ("and") to be the non-literal translation, i.e. they say the more literal translation is with et = anche ("also, even").
The German version agrees, using auch ("also, even") and not mentioning any possibility of using und ("and"); the Dutch version uses ook ("also, even") and concedes that it's possible to interpret et as en ("and") but mentions that in this case it's an abbreviation of etiam. (There's also a Russian one, but I can't read Russian.)
Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the general consensus, and the safest translation, is that et = also, even.
I agree with brian8733, although very often translations are slightly changing from language to language. For istance, the 3 italian translations reported, in English should read:
1) I fear the Greaks also when they bear gifts (more accepted in italian)
2) I fear the Greaks and the gifts they bear (non-literal)
2) I fear the Greaks even (them) bearing (some) gifts (more literal)
Finally, for what this sentence is concerned, most recent and accredited editions of the text, instead of ferentes, are reporting ferentis, ending in -is (plural accusative) widespread in the classic (ancient) Latin.
Yes, et can mean all three--even, also (too), and and. Luckily (I guess) for Italian, anche can mean both even and also, so assuming et is a shortened form of etiam (thus ruling out the "and" meaning), you can simply say et = anche. In English it's not so easy since you have to choose between also and even, and it's not 100% clear what the intended meaning is in Latin (maybe both?!).
[Off-topic: I memerized the line years ago with ferentis.]
Most interesting! Thank you for the citations.
A new use (to me) of a very familiar word.
To some extend and=even works in modern langauages too. If you understand the imperative dona (which seems a bit out of place here) as having a jussive meaning you could translate it as follows: I fear the Greek and may he bear gifts.
Separate names with a comma.