pensar que = subjuntivo?

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by Katie 999, May 8, 2007.

  1. Katie 999 Junior Member

    seattle
    U.S. - English
    does pensar que indicate the subjunctive?

    como...

    no quiero que ustedes piensen que yo sea estupida

    o

    no quiero que ustedes piensen que yo soy estupida

    y también que es una palabra más usado para "estupida".. como imbécil? o tonta?
     
  2. Breeze.. Junior Member

    Spanish - Argentina
    Hi,
    the second option is the right one.
    Estúpida is stronger than tonta.
    Hope it helps.
     
  3. LaReinita

    LaReinita Senior Member

    East Coast, USA
    USA (Northeast Coast)-Inglés
    Pienso que . . . + indicative===Always

    No pienso que + subjunctive . . HOWEVER . . if you are the Direct Object also . . . it will take the indicative . . . for example:

    I don't believe the test is difficult = No creo que sea difi'cil el examen.

    I don't believe that I will swim = No creo que nado.

    I hope that he doesn't bother me = Espero que no me moleste a e'l.

    I hope that I don't bother him = Espero que no le molesto.

    Estoy equivocada?
     
  4. Katie 999 Junior Member

    seattle
    U.S. - English
    muchas gracias a ustedes dos!
     
  5. Breeze.. Junior Member

    Spanish - Argentina
    Hi there, sorry to tell you it's wrong in most of the cases.
    The right ones are:

    I don't believe the test is difficult = No creo que el examen sea difícil.

    I don't believe that I will swim = No creo que nade (no creo que vaya a nadar)

    I hope that he doesn't bother me = Espero que él no me moleste (a mí)

    I hope that I don't bother him = Espero no molestarlo (or "no molestarle" depending the region. Though, as "him" is the the direct object, it should be replaced by "lo" and not "le")

    Another example: espero que no le moleste ... (sth) (whatever... espero que no le moleste mi presencia, espero que no le moleste que yo haya venido, espero que no le moleste que llame por teléfono a esta hora, etc, etc)
     
  6. LaReinita

    LaReinita Senior Member

    East Coast, USA
    USA (Northeast Coast)-Inglés
    He estado estudiando sola pero todo lo que lei'do se dice que:

    When you are both the subject and the direct object that the subjunctive is never used. This is wrong?
     
  7. Katie 999 Junior Member

    seattle
    U.S. - English
    ay ese me ayuda también! gracias
     
  8. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    I see multiple issues here. One is that piensen is already subjunctive, so one question is whether subjunctive must be or can be used in a clause subordinate to one in the subjunctive.

    The answer I think varies depending on dialect as well as on personal taste.

    Another issue is whether subjunctive is appropriate after pensar que.

    Here it depends on what the speaker means:

    "Pienso que vendrá." I think he'll come.
    "Pienso que sí viene." I think he is coming.
    "Sí pienso que viene." I do think he's coming.
    "Pienso que venga." I think he may be coming.
    "No pienso que venga." I don't think (i.e. I doubt) he's coming.
    "Pensé que vendría." I thought he would come. (I thought, "He'll come".)
    "Pensé que viniera." I thought he would be coming.
    "Pensé que había venido." I thought (really believed) he had come.
    "Pensé que hubiera venido." I thought he had come. (but now I know he didn't)
    "Pienso que vino." I think (really believe) he came.
    "Pienso que viniera." I think he may have come.

    As with subjuctive after subjunctive, it is probably a matter of local and individual culture and context whether to use subjunctive after pensar if you want to say you thought he came/would come/etc. without implying you know or don't know if he did/would/etc.
     
  9. Rayines Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    Castellano/Argentina
    Hola LaReinita: La regla es que preferentemente se usa el infinitivo en lugar de subjuntivo cuando el sujeto es el mismo:
    "Decidí venir temprano". (yo)
    "Espero poder abrir la puerta".
    "Deseo ardientemente empezar esos cursos".
    Sin embargo, (y tú lo preguntaste en otro hilo), hay excepciones, por ejemplo con "creer", o "pensar" con el valor de "creer" (y algunas más seguramente): "No creo que pueda llegar temprano" (yo), es más común que "No creo poder.....", lo mismo con "No pienso que vaya al gimnasio hoy".
    Espero que te sirva :).
     
  10. lazarus1907 Senior Member

    Lincoln, England
    Spanish, Spain
    Call it local and individual culture, but the ones I have highlighted are regarded as plain wrong by any normative grammar, and it is not accepted in many countries by any educated speakers (to me they sound foreign), so I wouldn't advice anyone to use them, or at least not in formal writing. There are certain rules about how to match tenses even though some people bend the rules for whichever the reason. Besides, "pensar" is a verb of perception and takes the indicative whenever the though is real, because it just describes the reality of the mental process, not the confidence of the speaker in the statement.
     
  11. Sairen Senior Member

    Midwestern US
    USA / English
    Si permitirán que regrese brevemente a la pregunta original, tengo una duda...

    Una persona dijo que la segunda oración es la correcta...y porque fue un hablante nativo, no lo dudo. Pero según mi entendimiento, se usa el subjuntivo también para expresar algo que es contrario a los hechos o la verdad.

    Así (y si nos acordamos de que el hablante realmente no es tonta), ¿por qué no diría "que sea estúpida", dado que ella no lo es??

    Muchas gracias por sus explicaciones y por corregirme cualquier error que haya hecho. ;-D
     
  12. roxcyn

    roxcyn Senior Member

    USA
    American English [AmE]
    No quiero que... (subjuntivo aquí)

    Entonces: No quiero que piensen (subjuntivo) que soy estúpida (tonta).

    Como hemos dicho pensar que no se usa el subjuntivo. Es que "quiero que..." y "no quiero que.." usa el subjuntivo. Espero que entiendas lo que he dicho :)

    Pablo
     
  13. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    Thank you, Lazurus.

    I think you're saying that subjunctive is possible after pensar only when used negatively (e.g. "No pienso que venga.").

    I am assuming that, in sentences like my examples and those in the original question, pensar = creer.

    I learned this rule for creer in High School: no creo que subjunctive; (sí) creo que indicative.

    But when I took Spanish grammar at our local university, I was introduced to the idea that the meaning governs whether to use subjunctive after creer.

    I have seen this other places too, but our textbook 30 years ago was A Concept Approach to Spanish Third Edition by Zenia Sacks Da Silva. There is a review of this textbook, which is still used in some U.S. universities, in Hispania, Vol. 59, No. 2 (May, 1976), pp. 391-392. doi:10.2307/339551 (author of review: Robert W. Hatton).

    A footnote under "Subjunctive and Indicative with creer" says “When the speaker wishes to express serious doubt, the subjunctive is possible: Creo que venga. I think he may possibly come.

    And now I’m learning that my high school teacher was right and my university textbook was wrong. :)
     
  14. roxcyn

    roxcyn Senior Member

    USA
    American English [AmE]
    Sí, tuve un libro en que decía eso también, pero no el libro no tenía razón. Es que a veces cometimos errores, y por supuesto es un error.
     
  15. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    ¿Se puede decir esto:

    "Creo que tal vez venga."

    ?
     
  16. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    Despite the preferences for the second option, I believe the first one is also viable. I refer to it as a subjunctive by attraction. Since everything after the first "que" is dependent on "querer," both clauses may be put in the subjunctive, even though, strictly speaking, pensar does not usually take a subjunctive in its affirmative form.

    Cheers!
     
  17. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    Good morning, folks!

    I am looking at a study done in Laredo (U.S.) and Nuevo Laredo (Méx.) that shows that educated native speakers prefer subjunctive in the following sentences:

    A. Es imposible que haya gatos que vuelen/vuelan.
    B. Era imposible que hubiera gatos que volaban/volaran.

    But 12% on the Mexican side of the border, 26% on the U.S. side, prefer indicative in these two sentences.

    There was little difference between A (present tense) as opposed to B (imperfect).

    Of course haber does not evoke indicative like pensar and no quiero perhaps does not evoke subjunctive as strongly as es imposible, so this example is not quite analogous to the one we are discussing.
     
  18. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    I think these are perfect examples of the subjunctive by attraction!
     

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